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The exciting world of Conversion Rate Optimization and the secrets to making it work for you! We are back! In our Season 2 opener, Kyle and Tom dive into the world of CRO: Conversion Rate Optimization. The bad jokes and light-heartedness continue as they bring in CRO veteran, Joris Bryon (Founder of Dexter Agency), to vamp alongside them. Conversion rate optimization is so much more than just driving conversions on a site and we explore some insights on the topic as well as some immaculate tips based on his years of experience. Kyle and Tom also touch on thoughts surrounding CRO ‘Best Practices’, why you should approach them with caution, the dangers of assumptions in eComm, and the importance of A/B testing.

Learn more about our guest:

Joris Bryon, Founder of Dexter Agency

Transcript

Tom:
Welcome to commerce chefs, a quirky and thought provoking show for future focused commerce leaders. We're gonna pit the world's most brilliant, inspiring, and driven D toy visionaries, the commerce chefs with riveting questions to uncover their secret ingredients at the intersection of passion, performance, and leadership in practice.

Kyle:
For the past decade, we've led teams of designers, strategists, and digital wizards at one of the leading e-com agencies in the country to help brave brands become enduring classics.

Tom:
And we're here to indefinitely borrow the strategies and pro tips that will make us all better leaders and make the brands we lead better too. We're back.

Kyle:
We're back, baby.

Tom:
Oh yeah. As you all know, we took some time off from podcasting to focus on a really big growth period with our E eco agency PB and J now.

Kyle:
That that season is leveling out and because our awesome team is holding things together, we are excited to be back with you all talking about the world of DDC e-com with some of the best of the best out there.

Tom:
I mean, plus all the calls from super famous celebrities, just begging us to create more episodes. I mean, that had something to do with it. It was nonstop.

Kyle:
I mean, do, do our moms count as super famous celebrities though?

Tom:
Of course, yeah. Okay. Nonetheless, we are back in action and kicking off season two with a slightly new format that we hope you'll enjoy. One on one long form conversations with kick guests.

Kyle:
We may throw the odds season one docu style approach back in the mix from time to time, but we are excited to take one big bite out of a tasty subject with each guest and squeeze the most of the juices out of each conversation that we have with someone.

Tom:
Okay. Count. That sounds gross. Really did absolutely sure. You could have thought of a better way to say that.

Kyle:
Yeah. As I, as I was saying it, we'll just fix it in post.

Tom:
Okay. So we've lined up a call with yours, Brian, the founder of Dexter agency to dig in on a topic that's near and dear to all of our hearts conversion rate optimization or CRO.

Kyle:
We talk about what it is, why you need to be doing it when it makes sense in some of the surprising revelations that come from this critical econ practice in spoiler alert, it's about deeper customer understanding

Tom:
Joris. Thank you for joining us. This is, um, season two, episode number one. So not a big deal, kind of a big deal, you know,

Kyle:
Such a big deal.

Tom:
Um, so thank you for joining us if, uh, let let's get, uh, let's get started with maybe, uh, just an intro. Um, who are you, where are you from? What do you do?

Joris:
Right. So I'm, I'm Joris, well for most English speakers, that, that, that would be jars. Uh, so I, I respond to pretty much anything that vaguely sounds like it <laugh>, uh, I'm, I'm from Belgium originally. I live in Spain and I've, uh, well, I've been running Dexter agency, conversion optimization agency for eCommerce, uh, for nearly seven years now. So that's, that's me just in short.

Tom:
Love it. I, I, I would look forward to what you are in long. Um, but this is, uh, this is perfect for now. So yeah. Um, thank you for, for joining us. Uh, you know, we've, we kind of put things on pause for a bit, but, uh, we're happy to be back slightly different format, but just pump to be chatting with some awesome people that contribute in really great ways to the e-commerce space. So thank you. You mentioned Dexter agency is a CRO or a conversion rate optimization agency. Um, tell us a little bit about CRO. I mean, we, Kyle and I, you know, with, with PB and J we come across this a lot, uh it's of increasing Importance and consideration right now. So just for those that may not know, um, what, what is CRO from your standpoint? Yeah. Tell us about, tell us.

Joris:
About Crow <laugh> Crow. Crow is actually cool kids here. <laugh> Crow is, is the acronym stands for conversion rate optimization and it's. It's what I do, but it's probably one of the acronyms I hate the most, uh, because it's, <laugh>, it's so inaccurate. Uh, it, I mean, CRO conversion rate optimization, I think, um, it was an agency actually that coin to term back in the days when, uh, all the cool kids, uh, used a free letter, uh, acronym and digital marketing. So it was SEO and DPC and that kind of stuff. So, uh, they figured we needed free letter acronym as well. Uh, and that's how CRO was born. But, um, the biggest problem I have with it is that it contains the words convey convers rate. And, uh, basically because that kind of sets the wrong kind of expectations and the wrong kind of focus. Um, because conversion rate is just a metric. I mean, it's one metric and it's an important metric, but it's not the most important metric. Um, when you run an e-commerce, it's all about revenue and profit and not just about conversion rate, uh, cuz there's so many factors that play that determine your convers rate. And uh, it, like if you wanna double your convers rate, just give your stuff away for free and it's gonna double or triple or whatever <laugh> uh, but that's not good business practice. Right. Um, so yes.

Tom:
Right.

Joris:
I'm I'm not really a big fan of, of conversion rate optimization, but I guess we, we kind of, yeah, we're stuck with it. Uh, we just have to live with it. Uh, and I, I think if we have to use the acronym is probably better to use it as continuous revenue optimization. It's not perfect either, but it's a little bit closer to what we do. And at least it focuses a little bit more on revenue as an important metric and not just on, uh, on conversion rate basically. So what it does is convers rate optimization or conversion optimization or continuous revenue optimization, whatever you wanna call it, Crow, we, we, uh, focus on trying to get more out of the site visitors that you already have. So we focus on trying to, um, yeah. Get more of them to buy from you and uh, buy while a little bit more from you.

Joris:
So at the higher average water value, I think that's yeah. Um, that's easily easier said than done cuz it's, it's, it's like part science, part art. There's a lot of data in it. Um, you have to be really data driven, but it's also part art because you have to translate those data into what that would look like, what, what kind of words you would use. So it requires a weird mix in someone's head. So you have to have someone that is, uh, like left part of the brain and right. Part of the brain combines those mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and, uh, so that makes it pretty hard cuz there's a lot of data, but there's designed there's psychology. There's uh, yeah. There's statistics as well. So it's, it's a weird mix of, of disciplines that come together in, in uh, conversion optimization. Uh, but yeah, so basically the, the simple version of the definition is we try to increase conversion rate, but that's probably not the best focus the beginning. Yeah, absolutely.

Tom:
Just the beginning L look right right now, or, or for the past few years. And, and we're in the eCommerce space as well. Like it seems that all the attention, all the hype, all the buds words, all the money, uh, was going, you know, to ads and acquisition. Um, you know, why, why is Crow or CRO, why is this practice becoming more and more critical for brands that are looking to win online?

Joris:
Yeah, that, that's a really good question. And, and I totally agree. I mean, there's a lot of eCommerce companies that, um, focus on on the traffic side of things and uh, it's normal and you have to do that, especially in the early days. Um, you need traffic, but um, if you only focus on traffic, you're missing, missing out on a lot. And especially now that advertising has become, um, yeah, more and more expensive, like year on year it's, it's getting more and more expensive to, uh, to get the same kind of return yeah. That you used to have. It's it's a real battle. And if you don't, uh, focus on, on CRO just yet, you are missing out on a lot of opportunities to, um, well, to make that advertising dollars work for you cuz uh, it, I mean, it's just breaking even though that first sale is getting harder and harder, um, and let alone make a profit.

Joris:
So it's it, you just have to try and make the most out of those advertising dollars and that doesn't work by just looking at the advertising side of things. You have to look at what happens on a site. And I, I used to work in, in, um, PPC, well, an agency that did PPC and SEO and they didn't even like report that much on, on what happened on the side. Their job was done when they dumped the traffic on the side. Right. That was it. Right. And there's still a lot of people that, that have that mindset. Um, and that think like, oh, let's pull this one lever traffic lever, but there's actually four levers to increase your revenue. So it's, it's a, it's a pretty simple formula. Um, your revenue equals the traffic tends convers rate times the average order value times of purchase frequency.

Joris:
That's it. So if you look at your online store, those are the only four levers that you can pull. Well, if you wanna grow your business, it's a different store. You can, you can, uh, start selling on other marketplaces, maybe start a brick and mortar store, whatever. But if you just look at your online at your online store, there's only four ways to grow and it's traffic configurate, average water value and purchase frequency. Yet everyone focuses on traffic and kind of ignores the tree levers. But if you wanna double your business, you can try and double your business by doubling the traffic. And usually you'll have to do more than doubling the traffic because not all traffic is created equal you'll um, you'll have a hard and harder time to find the same quality of traffic at a certain point. So doubling the traffic is gonna be very hard, but if you, um, can add an like 30% to your conversion rate, 30% to your average order value and 30% to your purchase frequency, basically, if you remember that formula revenues, traffic times convert rate times, average order value times purchase frequency. What you do is you more than double your business by just focusing on those three other levers and try to increase each one of those by 30%. Um, and that's a lot more realistic scenario than trying to double your business by focusing on, uh, on just the traffic.

Tom:
Right? So this, yeah, this, this idea or approach or practice really discipline of smaller levers swinging large doors or small, uh, what's it, small hinges, swing, large doors. Um, uh, I I've, I've heard it. I don't know if, if this is accurate yours, but I've, I've often likened it or, or heard it be referred to as, um, you know, your acquisition is kind of the hose. Um, and if, if you're pouring water and more water and more water into a bucket that doesn't have a bottom or at least has holes in it, um, you're losing out on a lot of that water that's being put in that bucket. So it, I mean, it sort of sounds like this, this practice of looking at conversion rate, average order value and purchase frequency, these, these smaller pieces that make up the whole, uh, that's sort of just making a, a more efficient bucket, uh, and then, you know, getting, getting bigger from there, um, makes a lot of sense, cuz you're not losing more as you add more.

Joris:
Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree. And I, I, I think, uh, it, it's important to realize that, um, if, if you've like, um, if it, you you've talking about the leaky bucket, if you plug the holes in the leaky bucket, uh, every traffic that you you're gonna add is, is actually gonna, um, get you a better return, which will make that. Yeah, you'll be more profitable and you'll have more money that you can reinvest in your traffic as well. So, um, mm-hmm <affirmative>, there's that, um, notion of, uh, out spending your competitors? Well, if you that's never gonna happen, if you only focus on traffic, you can only outspend your competitors. Uh, if you do a wonderful job, uh, in terms of convers rate, average order value and purchase frequency, if you ignore or, or neglect those three levers, you're never gonna be able to outspend, uh, your, your competitors. You're always gonna struggle, uh, to try and, and, and break even on, on that first sale. And, and whenever a platform, uh, be it Facebook or Google becomes more and more competitive or changes to rules and, and, and, uh, it becomes really hard for you to break even, or you, or you turn a loss. Your business is even in danger because you don't control those, uh, those traffic channels. You borrow the traffic, but you don't own it.

Kyle:
Yeah. And Hey, when, when has a significant change happened in a platform like Facebook or Google in recent history? I mean, well warm almost never. Yeah. Never, never happens. No, you never, how, how have you, what, like, I mean, I know that's still such a relevant topic. It's been, I guess it's been in maybe six months or 12 months since like the big shifts have started to happen, but what have you seen yours in terms of those big seismic shifts happening and privacy and, and the way acquisition is changing and how that impacts, uh, commercial rate optimization or, or as you better put it, uh, continuous revenue optimization.

Joris:
Yeah, that, that's an excellent question. It's something that I, I, um, I noticed personally over the last six or 12 months, um, the, the, the concerns people have when they come to us are different than they used to be before. It was like a nice to have to do CRO it was, uh, the cherry on the cake. Now it's really out of necessity, uh, that they come to us because it's getting harder and harder for them to make the advertising dollars work because, uh, there's a, the, the, the tracking rules have changed. They don't know, uh, what what's really working anymore. Um, they often see, uh, lower, well decreased ROS. Um, they have to shut down campaigns, even entire traffic channels. Um, so yeah, CRO is really becoming a necessity to, to survive, uh, and, and not just to cherry on the cake, uh, like it used to be. Um, and, and I, I guess that it's only the beginning of a trend, um, because consumers are getting more and more privacy sensitive and privacy aware and, uh, companies like, well, what apple has done for instance, um, although we can discuss about the real motive of apple behind it, but, um, what, what apple has done is basically inspired by that increased sensitivity of, of consumers, uh, for privacy. And it's only gonna get yeah. Uh, worse, well, worse or better. That depends the way.

Kyle:
You look at it, the way it depends, what side of the equation you're on. Yeah, yeah.

Joris:
Absolutely. And we, as digital marketers, we we've been, um, kind of spoiled, uh, cuz we had so much data we, that we could look at and, and analyze and kind of, well, let's turn this, not here to the left and that one pushed the button here on the right and that's that's well, and the machine works again cause we, we know what we're doing and we can, we can steer it in the right direction. But um, we will have to learn, uh, with well, to live with a certain amount of, of uncertainty. Um, and that's what that, that makes a lot of digital markers afraid and that's because they don't, they they're so used to hide behind just data and, and, and looking at those traffic channels. So let's add a little bit more here in this campaign and uh, turn, dial this in and whatever, but basically what it comes down to is you work with people and you have to try and understand, uh, who you do this for what their motives are and try to service them better. And, and if you do that, then, then you still have plenty of opportunities to win this game and, and make a lot of money. But, um, it, it frightens a lot of digital markers to really try and get into the minds of their, uh, of their customers because it's so safe, hiding behind data and trying to, uh, to make that work. But we'll have to learn to live with a certain degree of uncertainty because, uh, we're gonna have less and less data, uh, available in the future. At least that's my, um, expectation.

Tom:
Why, yeah. I mean, for, for what it's worth, I think we would both agree that that's the case. And, um, I mean from our vantage point as well, it feels really important for brands to consider this. Um, it, it's not, it's not going to be some passive, uh, automated, um, you know, AI driven, uh, component of their growth so much anymore. You know, we, we really need to get our hands dirty. Our, our, these brands we're working with need to, uh, intentionally and carefully, like with care, build relationships and deeper understanding and connection with their customer base and that that's going to be the recipe for growth, um, moving forward. And, and I, I, I feel, uh, anyway, like CROs a big part of that, this idea of, of understanding over time, um, and that, yeah, that this still comes with a, a, a suite of data and then you are looking and learning mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, you are testing assumptions and, you know, I'm, I'm sure you could speak to the CROs, but sometimes you get it right. Sometimes you don't. Um, but I think it, you have an opportunity to learn from each one of those interactions or experiments. Um, but maybe, maybe speak on that a little bit more. I mean, from my advantage point, I think, you know, we, we see often too few brands are, are engaging with this, with this practice. So, so why, what does it look like? What would it, what would it look like? You know, high level, um, for a brand to sort of dive into the CRO pool.

Joris:
Okay. Yeah. That's, <laugh>, it's, it's not easy to crack the CRO code. Um, yeah, but it's, well, it's totally doable. And, and, um, a couple of years ago, I, I, I wrote a book that kind of reads like a user manual it's called, um, kill your conversion killers with did method, but the idea was really to lay everything out step by step. And, and if you follow the book, you'll, you'll get pretty far with the whole zero thing. But what comes down to is, is really, um, first of all, trying to understand what is happening, where people, where are people dropping off. Um, and, and, and why, uh, and I think why is the most important question? And so you have to start really with doing research and we, we have a, a framework or a method called a Dexter method and, and, uh, Dexter stands for, uh, data execute, uh, test evaluates and repeat.

Joris:
And so the data is really the starting point and we spend a lot of time and effort, um, trying to get a really good picture of, of what's happening on your side. And, uh, why are people dropping off? Why aren't they buying? Um, and, and that's not just looking at quantitative data, which is, again, digital marketers. We like to hide behind data and usually it's quantitative data, but it's also, uh, qualitative data because the qualitative data will give you an answer to the question why, um, like a typical typical example is, is, uh, you see a big drop off on, on a checkout page. And, uh, what most marketers will do. They'll look at Google analytics, they'll see in Google analytics, they'll see the drop off on that page. And then they'll start speculating. They'll look at the page and say, oh, maybe it's because we added this form field in there.

Joris:
Or maybe this is not clear, or maybe we should do it shorter. And it's just all speculation. Whereas if you use qualitative data and qualitative research methods, you'll get a lot closer to the actual problem. And you'll, you'll try to get into the minds of your customers to really understand why people are drop dropping off on that particular page. Um, so I think qualitative data is probably more powerful in this context than quantitative data. Don't get me wrong, both are important, but, um, the quality of data is where you really make the difference and where you really get the ideas of how can we change the site so that, uh, people will, um, uh, convert better. So that's first phase is really all about the data and the data I cannot stress that enough is, is it's so important to that. Do that re research.

Joris:
Um, actually there there's, uh, research done by, I believe it was visual website optimizer, um, and, uh, a B testing tool that did this research a couple of years back. And, uh, what they found was that people who started AB testing without any form of research, what they, um, what they had as results was one out of every seven AB tests delivered them a significant result. And that's a significant result. I'm not saying a significant winner. It could also be a significant loser. So they set up seven tests. Yeah, that's an important nuance here. So they set up seven tests, six of them. There's no real variation, no real, a significant, significant difference between the two variations. So between a and B the seventh, yes, there's a significant difference, but it could also be a significant loser. Um, whereas if you follow the data and you do the research really well, and what we see on average across all of our projects is, um, we find a one significant winner out of every tree test, and that's not a significant result, but significant winner.

Joris:
So we set up tree tests, two are insignificant the difference, or maybe a loser, but is one winner out of those three. And that's really important. So we spend some time up front doing that research, but basically as of like this, the <laugh> the first month that you, you a B test, you already met up, made up for the time you lost, uh, uh, in, in, in while doing, by doing that research. So that's really important that data phase that research and trying to understand what's happening, where it's happening, why it's happening. I can stress that enough. Cuz the, one of the biggest rookie mistakes I see is people jumping immediately to the Abeta thing because they read case studies, um, about Abeta thing. They think it's cool. They think they'll get the same kind of results and they set up an AP test. They do two of those, maybe three, right? They, eh, results are not great and they give up and uh, they move on to something else. Well,

Tom:
That's and that's really interesting. Yeah. Cuz um, I, I was reading something yours, um, that, that mentioned that, that brands, that, that attempt to approach CRO as an in-house practice or, or one that their team facilitates, uh, not, not only are they slower, uh, at executing it. Um, but they actually see, uh, a quarter of the results or positive lift, uh, than they would working with an external partner. And I, I think, um, based on that article, uh, there were a lot of factors that went into it, but, but what I mean kind of based on what you said, does it seem like that's sort of, the approach is, oh, well this one, this one or two or three times that we tried something didn't really work or we didn't get a winner. Um, so it must not work for us. D do you see that attitude or ideal, uh, creeping in often?

Joris:
Yeah, I, I think, I mean, I, I haven't read that article and uh, so I, I cannot say what the exact reasons are, why in-house teams don't get the same results. I can only speak from my experience, but I, what I see, um, I mean, I've, I've seen many things over all those years, but, uh, I we've had several clients that tried some AB testing, uh, before, uh, in-house didn't really get results, but it's also about, um, focus and, and as an agency, we focus on it, we've run over 2000 AB tests on e-commerce sites. That's an experience where the expertise that you can never build up inhouse, um, mm-hmm <affirmative> but also they pay us to set up a certain number of a B tests. And we do that. We, we, we follow too, whereas in-house, there's not always that I know that that, that minimum number of tests they have to set up and, and, uh, there's not enough pressure or incentive behind it.

Joris:
But also another thing is that in house, what I see is that the wrong people are assigned to CRO project. I've seen, uh, that happen as well. Um, what typically happens is like, oh, we should do AB testing. And then they ask someone like on the PPC team, like, oh yeah, can, can you AB test maybe set up an AB test or two a month or she right. And that person doesn't know what he's doing or she's doing. And, and, uh, they have to figure it out and they don't wanna say no, so they do it, but it's not really their, their expertise or, or they, they don't even know how to, how to interpret the data. Uh, so they may be calling a winner when it's not a winner or even a loser. Um, so it's, it's something that, that, um, that happens a lot.

Joris:
It's just you, it's very hard to find good CRO people. Trust me, we've hired a few over the years and, and, and interviewed many over the years and it's, uh, there's there aren't many good CROs out there, but the person in house who is, um, responsible for hiring or appoint appointing someone to do the CRO project, doesn't really know how to evaluate where that person actually knows what he's doing. And, um, it's, it's something, um, I mean, it's pretty easy to say that you're good at CRO. And if, if the person who's interviewing you doesn't really know what CRO is all about. Doesn't really understand the ins and outs will not be able to poke holes through that. And, uh, someone can really sell themselves as, as a good CRO in house, but yeah, <laugh>, you know, they, they they're just beginners or they don't even know what they're doing. Um, so that's, that's also things that, that I'm seeing. It's really hard to find, uh, good CROs. Um, so yeah, that, anyway, those are a few factors that, that I've seen over the years in, in my experience, uh, that could contribute to getting lower or poor results, uh, within inhouse zero team than, than when you outsource it.

Tom:
That's great. Thanks for that insight. So over this journey, you've had a few years kicking at this can, I know you've learned a lot, you've run a lot of tests. Um, you've, you've skilled your team and, um, you know, really built out a, a pretty iron cloud SOP around all of this, but, you know, if you're open to it, what's, what's kind of an anecdote that, or, uh, a story of, uh, one of the more surprising things that you've learned or seen, uh, along the way.

Joris:
All right. <laugh> that so many, so many, so many, uh,

Tom:
<laugh> trying to pick your favourite town.

Kyle:
Just one, just

Joris:
One. Oh, just one. Can I have two or three or four?

Kyle:
Actually, we've got two hours just go for it. <laugh>

Joris:
No, I think, I mean, we've, as I said, we've, we've, we've done over 2000 tests on, on eCommerce sites. So, uh, and we we've had many surprising results. Uh, I, I remember one case for instance, where, um, we had a client and, and, uh, they had just signed up, um, and they had been comparing us to other agencies. And, um, we, we did a kickoff call and the client said like, Hey, and that other agency, they told me to add, uh, a benefits bar on, on the side. It's a no brainer. I should just do it. And, and, uh, you know, like on the eCommerce side, those benefits bar, let's say like free shipping, uh, I don't know, right. To the day money back guarantee, that kind of stuff with, usually with an I icon with it on top of, of, uh, of the site.

Joris:
I see it on, on, yeah. You see it on many, on many sites and it is usually considered a best practice. But, um, I, we, we hadn't done any research yet. I didn't have any feeling yet with the data nor with the target group and what really motivated that target group. So I, I pushed back and I said like, no, we're not gonna implement it. Let's test it. And, uh, we had a bit bit of back and forth there, but, uh, in the end he gave and said like, okay, you're the experts. Um, I'll let let's test it. And we tested it. And the result was that they had a 99.7% probability of losing a million dollars. Um, if they had gone ahead and it, oh, what had gone ahead and implemented that benefits bar. So, wow. A million dollars a year that they could have lost by implementing something that seems like a no brainer.

Joris:
That seems like a best practice. Um, and it's, it's, I mean, you, you could, you could argue and say like, Hey, but a million dollars, don't you think they would've noticed that? Uh, well, their revenue went down. Well, actually, no, the thing is they were doing around 10 or $11 million, uh, a year. So imagine, imagine they implement this and they're so convinced it's, it's, it's a best practice. They implement it. And maybe they see their conversion rates go down slowly for, from 1% to 0.9%. And that seems like a normal fluctuation. I mean, tomorrow it can pick up again. Um, and by the time they may be a little bit worried about that. Just that, that small drop they're so convinced that it's, that the benefits bar was the best practice that they'll, uh, start looking at other culprits, um, has, has decide speed, increased.

Joris:
Um, have, have we changed any campaigns, uh, or maybe our competitor has promotions that we don't have. So people are now, uh, buying from the competitor. So they'll look in different directions and not, they're not looking at that benefits bar as a culprit, so it really would go unnoticed. It would go under a, a radar. And at the end of the year, they would've lost a million dollars. So not to say here, that's really important that, wow, everyone who's listening here, don't go and remove the benefits broader from your side. <laugh>, it's really important to you. Cause it, usually it is a good idea to have it, but you should test it because it, it's not because it's a best practice, right. That it is definitely guaranteed to work for you. And I, we have many of those, uh, tests that are so-called best practices that don't always work sometimes actually, um, make you lose money.

Joris:
Uh, and you think it's the best practice. So that's also why I'm apart from not being a fan of the whole CRO acronym. I'm not a fan of the word best practice in what we do. <laugh> um, because cuz it implies that there's, it's the only way it's the best practice. So I prefer to call it a common practice, uh, or a prototypical principle, which is a little bit fancier maybe, but let's call it a common practice. Uh, it, it has, yeah, doesn't have that expectation around it cuz best practice has that expectation around it. And um, yeah, it's, it's just, we've, we've seen it many times and tests that so-called best practices may actually hurt your conversion rate. So be careful about it. Always test it never assumed that, oh, uh, that's the best practice. So let's implement it or even worse a case study that you read somewhere.

Joris:
Uh, oh it worked for them. It won for them. Let's just implement it. Um, if I, if I can give one more example here <laugh> do we have more time of, yeah. Um, I remember a, a case where our client came to us and he said like, Hey, we, we, we were at a case study where they removed the currency symbol on the category and product pages and that they actually, uh, increased their convers rate. Can we test it? So I was already happy that they didn't just implement any someone else's case study and, and they asked us to test and I was like, okay, sure, let let's test it. And um, it, it turned out to be a big winner for them, so cool. Uh, we were like, okay, let's test it. on our other client sites. And um, second one, we tested it on.

Joris:
Didn't really make a difference. Third one, it was a loser and a fourth one, it was a big loser. So had we gone ahead and taken that one winner cuz well I had already one twice in that case study that our client read then on our client's side, had we gone ahead and told our clients to implement it on, well, not everyone would've made extra money. Some would've lost money actually. So what works on one side doesn't necessarily work on your side and always keep that in mind. Don't just assume that, um, what someone else is doing will also work for you. So that's, that's super important, especially if you don't really know what you're doing, be careful about best practices and case studies. That's like a big pet fee pet pee of mind. You can look at best practices and case studies. If you, you understand what you're doing, how to interpret those and then definitely test them.

Tom:
That's huge advice and take away I think for, for anyone listening and um, I, I, and maybe I could be wrong. Um, and Kyle, please feel free to jump in, but I kind of heard two things in there. Yours one is don't assume anything, test it all. Um, the other is, is kind of on that, that iterative nature. Uh, I think of, of CRO that you've been discussing, which is like every single component can play and does play a role for better, for worse in how the site is performing. But it also, uh, I think the other takeaway I sort of heard in there, uh, under the, under the radar maybe was that those learnings though on an individual test basis, like the, um, that sort of announcement bar at the top of the site that you were, that you were referencing that learning for that site though is, is pretty evergreen. Like unless something critical shifts in the market or the business model, I mean every test you run every, uh, assumption that you, you know, put through the gauntlet, um, the learnings you take from that and the, especially with the winners, you know, the application of that, um, that just sort of like carries through for the li that foreseeable lifetime of that change. And, and you're, you're looking at like this compound effect of everything that you're working on. Yeah,

Joris:
Absolutely. I, uh, happy you see that cuz not everyone sees that it's it's true. It's cause look at at PPC. So, uh, say, uh, this month you can spend a hundred thousand dollars more on PPC. You spend a hundred thousand dollars more, you'll get more, uh, traffic and more conversions if you do it right. Um, next month you don't spend that a hundred thousand. You fall back to your previous level, uh, of conversions and revenue. So, um, it, whereas if you spend, let's say a hundred thousand on conversion optimization, you find a couple of winners you get, um, let's say, so you do that this month, the a hundred thousand is spent this month on conversion optimization and uh, you'll get those winners, but that it doesn't stop when you, when you stop investing in it. You'll, you'll, you'll see that effect, uh, for a long time to come. Is it gonna be there forever? Probably not. Cuz things change, people change sites change. So there's, there's a lot of factors at play, but at least it's, it's safe to assume that it's, it's gonna be there for six months, 12 months, 18 months, maybe longer. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's a really important, uh, difference between what we do and what uh, pay traffic does.

Tom:
Yeah. That's that's awesome.

Kyle:
Yeah. I, the other thing is hearing you say too, yours is kind of going back to that, that human element, you know, and just going back to that, you know, not taking case studies exactly as they are and applying them to you is, is that, that ability to see that there's humans on the other side of this data and just because, you know, there's definitely trends and things we can take from it, but it doesn't mean it's gonna work with the humans that are interacting with your brand and for the reasons they're interacting with you. And so to really just kind of take that with caution, that like you said, case studies and data is just one dimension of what's gonna help you grow in that revenue optimization.

Joris:
Yeah. Um, AB absolutely. At the end of the day, we're doing this for, for, for our customers. Well, our clients are doing it for their customers, but um, so it's, it, it's not about pushing product. It's, it's about solving a problem for people through your product. If, if you, if you understand those problems, if you understand your target group, if you can speak their language, um, then, then you're gonna convert a lot better. And, and so it's just, it's just, it's people, you gotta understand them and, and try to try to help them out. And sometimes it's, it's small stuff that can really nudge them, uh, towards a purchase that, or that can, can have, um, a psychological impact or can be a little, like a final trigger they need to, uh, to make that purchase. And, and that you, you can only come up with that if, if you have some empathy, uh, and can understand, uh, who you're doing this for.

Joris:
And some, yeah, sometimes again, it's, it's, it's pretty small change, like, um, the biggest winner we had with the small change and, and don't mention it, uh, before like the little hinges, swing, big doors and, and, and we're really big fans of that. We, um, the biggest win we had was, uh, a hundred percent probability of adding 5.5 million a year to a client site with one change on a product page. What we did was they already had a guarantee. Um, it was a 90 day money back guarantee, I believe it was. Um, and they had it on the page, on the product page. The only thing is we noticed when, when we did use the testing that many people kind of missed out on it, they didn't see it. So we, uh, took that and put it well, no, we left it there, but we repeated it, uh, near the, uh, at the card button on the product page.

Joris:
So the decision area, and that turned out to be like a final nudge for people to, to take action to select, oh, but this I could take guarantee, okay, let's add it to the cart and, and, and buy. Um, so it's a small change, but that small change, uh, added $5.5 million per year, uh, to our client site. So that's, that's pretty huge for a small change. And that's all because of psychology because of, of empathy, because of trying to understand, um, who you're doing this for and, uh, why they, uh, yeah. Why maybe they're, they're having some fears and certainties and doubts and how you can solve that. And in this case, it was like, okay, we already offer good guarantee, but the, they seem to be missing it. So let's make it a little bit clear to take away that last, uh, uh, fear, certain or doubt, and yeah. Turned out to have a, a pretty big impact.

Tom:
I love that. So if I could crudely summarize yours, are you saying that the more you Crow, the more, you know, <laugh>

Joris:
Oh, wow. I love

Kyle:
That.

Joris:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Kyle:
We, you made it the whole podcast without another Crow joke. <laugh> almost, almost that's so good.

Tom:
The other one I was thinking of was that, um, that, that actually, when Peter pan did grow up, um, he, he, uh, got a job in, in Crow.

Joris:
Yeah. <laugh> I like the other one better. <laugh>

Tom:
All right.

Kyle:
There's there's a whole, we could, we could do like a Crow show, the Crow show, and we could just go into all these puns and how they connect with, with optimizing. I'm sure there's some in there, yours. You've probably done that. Right. You just sit down and just make Crow jokes.

Joris:
Yeah, it should be. But let, let let's test the joke first a B test and to see which

Tom:
Well done

Kyle:
Well. Oh, that's good. Okay. I, I've got a closing question for you. No, wait, I have two closing questions for you. They are both advice questions. And the first one is really just advice for brave brand leaders that are listening to this podcast, those DDC brands that are going okay. I heard all this. What's some closing wisdom and advice for them.

Joris:
Do the research. Don't, don't just jump in and, and try to find winners who they be testing, uh, do the research, try to understand what's happening, where it's happening, why it's happening and, and, and that's gonna yeah. Get you a great foundation for, uh, winners later on and, and keep going. Cuz in the beginning, it's not gonna be easy. Uh, you gotta get discouraged by losers, but just keep going. Uh, and you'll find some momentum at some point. And then I promise you it's it's it's real fun to do.

Kyle:
Just keep crying. Just keep I'm sorry. It's it started now. Oh, okay. Oh no, you didn't. <laugh> everyone listening is probably like those guys know nobody says Crow, right? Like they, they know it's not a real thing. You're working on a joke. It's not a thing. Oh man. Okay. Speaking of winners and losers. Here's my other advice question group F Belgium, Canada. What's the advice you have for team Canada to not be a loser <laugh> <laugh>

Joris:
Oh, uh <laugh> are they in the same group? I'm sorry. I don't know anything

Kyle:
About they are. Yeah.

Joris:
Oh, okay. I didn't even know. Oh

Kyle:
Yeah. I didn't, I don't really know. I'm just on the bandwagon. I just jumped on its like, we're like we're winning games. I'm like I'm there. And then we end up with Belgium job. Belgium's like the best in the world.

Joris:
I, I, I think I only, I accidentally heard yesterday that Belgium is gonna, that, that is, that is world cup coming up. So no, if it were a cycling question, I, I, I, I could go on for hours, but sorry. Wrong sports.

Kyle:
Oh, brilliant. <laugh> so, okay. We'll get that's the other podcast. This is the next one. We'll come back to that. <laugh> uh, that's it. That's my that's my I'm just, I'm just sourcing, um, uh, optimization advice for the, the men's team to bring home a goal. We're going with a goal team. Canada. If we get a goal, I'm gonna be like down the street, running back and forth.

Joris:
<laugh> should, should be doable.

Kyle:
Uh, yeah, I think so.

Joris:
No one is unbeatable. Yeah,

Tom:
That's

Kyle:
Right. You just gotta test right. Their defense. Yeah. Oh, try

Joris:
You do the research first. Try to understand them. You the

Kyle:
Re you gotta study. Yeah. That's good place

Tom:
All your money on, uh, you know, the one that you think is gonna come outta winner. Right. That's how that works. I think

Kyle:
<laugh>

Tom:
Uh, yours, uh, really want to thank you for, uh, joining us to talk about CRO. Um, but, but more than that, I think just the I'm glad you brought that up, but I know we both are the, the empathy that needs to come into on an ongoing basis, uh, come into the commerce space. Um, you know, talking about small hinges, talking about iteration, not assuming anything, doing your research, um, evergreen changes and, and really those, those things you can do to truly impact your business, um, that are, they're kind of right there in front of you. And it, it doesn't have to be by spending more on ads. So, um, yeah, I, I know this won't be the last time we talk and I know that this is such a, um, important blossoming, uh, area of consideration for, uh, D TOC brands. So thanks for bringing your expertise to the table, you know, putting up with, with our bad jokes, uh, as, uh, you know, as some might say, but, uh, yeah, really appreciate it. And, uh, we'll talk again soon.

Kyle:
Well, that's it for this episode of commerce chefs. Thanks for listening.

Tom:
We hope you enjoyed the new format and learning a little more about the secret ingredients to make CRO work

Kyle:
For you. But if you're looking for more, make sure to join the commerce chef's community by following us on social at commerce chefs, ask us questions, send in requests. We want to hear from you.

Tom:
We're currently cooking up the next episode of commerce chefs. So be sure to tune in on May 5th, remember it's just as important to feed your ears as your mouth, because as they say, the ears are the other mouth of the head.

Kyle:
Mm yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> oh, well, okay. Well lastly, if you like this episode and you want to support us, make sure to hit the subscribe button and leave us a five star rating and review until next time. This has been a pinch of Kyle

Tom:
And a dash of Tom. We'll be cooking with you in two weeks.