Nailing Your Niche | Courtney Buhler

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Streaming here

After taking Sugarlash Pro from her living room to a global e-commerce giant, it’s safe to say Courtney Buhler knows a thing or two about scaling a rave-worthy business. In today’s episode, Courtney offers her pro tips on putting your customers first, finding your leadership style (and yourself in the process), and nailing down your market niche.

Learn more about our guest:

Courtney Buhler, CEO & Founder @ Sugarlash Pro

Transcript

Tom: Welcome to Commerce Chefs, a quirky and thought-provoking show for future-focused commerce leaders. We're going to pit the world's most brilliant, inspiring and driven DTC visionaries, the Commerce Chefs with riveting questions to uncover their secret ingredients at the intersection of passion, performance and leadership in practice. 

Kyle: For the past decade, we've led teams of designers, strategists and digital wizards at one of the leading eComm agencies in the country to help brave brands become enduring classics. 

Tom: And we're here to indefinitely borrow the strategies and pro tips that will make us all better leaders and make the brands we lead better, too. 

Kyle: Now that we're officially finished our first season, we've decided to spice things up a little bit over the summer for your listening enjoyment.

Tom: Every two weeks we're releasing some of our favourite interviews from season one, but in long form so we can share even more delicious insights with you. 

Kyle: The secret good stuff that you didn't get to hear. So listen in. Grab a marg-ear-ita. 

Tom: No, no, that's awful. Awful sounding and probably tasting, too. 

Kyle: OK. OK, grab a daiq-ear-i. Enjoy some easy, breezy listening by the poolside with your favorite podcast hosts and let us know what you think in the review section. 

Tom: This week, we're sharing an exciting interview from the one, the only Courtney Buhler, the founder of Sugarlash PRO. She's a patron of our set PB&J, our eComm agency and quickly becoming a good friend. Uhmm, guess, Court, if you're listening. Thanks for accepting my Facebook friend request. 

Kyle: In only four years, Sugarlash has exploded from a small, home-based business into the third largest lash beauty brand on the planet that's been featured in Cosmopolitan, Bustle, In Style  and is sold in over 90 countries. 

Tom: Courtney shares her Sugarlash PRO tips on taking a DTC brand from her living room to the global stage. 

Kyle: We chat leadership styles, finding your niche, finding yourself and what it takes to truly put customers first. 

Tom: Let's hop in. 

Courtney: My name is Courtney Buhler and I am the founder and CEO of Sugarlash PRO. 

Tom: So Kyle and I love stories. Why don't we start with yours? Give us the the brief rundown of your story with Sugarlash and starting that company and kind of where where it came from. Why all the juicy deets? 

Courtney: It's been quite a journey. It starts, I guess the journey starts long before Sugarlash PRO. And that was when I, I was eighteen. I was pregnant at the time and everyone thought my life was over and I was like, guys, just calm down, I'll sort it out. And at the same time had just moved back in my parents trying to get back on my feet. And I was texting my mom one day and she said eyelash extensions are a thing like we'd never you'd never heard of it before. This is like this is 14 years ago now. So she's like eyelash extensions are a thing which was just like mind blowing at the time. And she's like, we should go. Because in my family, it was like my mom had the worst lashes. And then I have two sisters and they had awesome lashes. So we were like jealous of them all the time. So I went got them done just in this woman's house. And it was just kind of this home base thing. And I thought it was super cool. But I like right away it was just so like manic about the whole situation. I'm like, what are you doing? How are you applying them? What what length is there? What curls? And she was just like, oh my gosh, just shut up and let me take your lashes. Like, stop being such a weirdo. And I just was obsessed with it instantly. And so I the moment I got them done, like, I just for me, like years of wearing mascara and never being able to get the length that you wanted and all of a sudden having these like sky high lashes, it was just like such an empowerment thing for me. And so, yeah, I was just instantly hooked and so, like, fun fact. Obviously, I was I was working retail at the time and, you know, just trying to get back on my feet and everything. And so money was tight. But I actually cleaned my lash lady's house just in order to get lashes, like just in order to afford them. I scrubbed her toilets, her kids played a prank on me and put fake poo on the toilet. And I thought it actually was real. And I broke their toilet because they put it in and flushed it and broke her toilet. So cost me like eight hundred dollars. Anyways, that was just a fun side fact. But nonetheless, I love my lashes. I did whatever I needed to do to have that like could not be without them ever. Still cannot be without them. And my lash technician that I was grilling, she was on that said I should take a course. And so I did. And it was a really poor one at the time, just kind of an afternoon course that I didn't feel like I had a lot of theory behind. But I started lashing like part time and then was working very quickly, 60 hour work weeks. And I was like, wait a minute, this was supposed to be like flexible and cool. And then it wasn't that. And so I hired my first employee, which I had like no dreams of doing. There was no aspirations to be like, I'll open a salon or anything, hired another one, hired another one. So at the busiest point in my career, Home-Based, I had six full time staff and we were seeing anywhere from fifty to sixty five people per day in and out of my home, which was highly illegal. If that wasn't clear. I don't know what everyone thought we were doing in the neighborhood, but they put up with it for a long time. And then when they started to get annoyed by it and we were starting to run into issues, I had already kind of started the the commercial space build out. And I built the salon. Took it to ten staff. And then that was kind of the turning point for Sugarlash PRO when I decided to create it, because everyone was asking, like, can I fly in and get trained with you what product you're using? And I just thought, yeah, I can I can keep all the you know, the know how of the trial and error that I've developed over the years to myself. Or I can decide to like, think a little bit bigger and actually have a real impact on the industry. So that's what we did. And Sugarlash PRO just turned seven this year. And we were in I think it's ninety four countries around the world with like one hundred and sixty five thousand lash artists currently using our product. 

Tom: That's. Crazy, so seven years, 90 over 90 countries and how many people? 

Courtney: A hundred and sixty five thousand was the last count that we did last week. 

Tom: Artists using your product. 

Courtney: Yes. Or they have used it or have done the academy side. There's different facets. But, yes, that's our that's our list at the moment. And you know what? You're gonna get into it. You're gonna say, how did you get so global? How did you and I'll tell you the secret. It's really bad ad targeting. 

Tom: Really bad ad. OK, tell me more. We've got to hear about this. 

Courtney: So from day one, I just I didn't know how to use, like, proper Facebook ads or pick proper audiences. And so I just would target interests opposed to locations and the lash like industry was so little at the time. So there was like lots of Facebook forums and stuff with just people all over the world. But like when I came into the industry, it was brand new. So there was really only like at max capacity. There was like twelve hundred artists around the globe. It was just a little little pool of us. And then there was kind of like 15 of us, which are still kind of the 15 that are like kind of the leaders in the industry. Anyways. But I would do ads and I would just target people that are interested in eyelash extensions or mascara or estheticians or whatever, and I would just put it global. And so these ads were shown to just people all over the world. And right from launch, we were shipping stuff to Paris and Australia and Indonesia, and it was just like bizarre, which is funny because looking back on it, people are like, you know, there's other people in the same space that are like, oh, how do you break into new markets? And I'm like, oh, I'll just put ads in front of them, I guess.

Kyle: I love everything about that. That is so, so good. Just like I just didn't know what I was doing on this thing. And it just, you know, sometimes our biggest, not mistakes, our biggest. What do you call that biggest oops are like the biggest opportunities

Tom: Accidents, let's say accidents, accidents like the poop in the toilet. 

Courtney: Yeah, exactly. I don't know, there wasn't a win on that one, but there was a win on this one. I know, it's just, it's just one of those things that it's I mean it's such a blessing. But I think that that's kind of the key is like when you don't know what you're doing, I wasn't gonna not put ads out there, so I knew I was just gonna do it, even though I could have you know spent days researching it and figuring out how to target your audience. But I just kind of did it and I knew that I had this money to throw at it. And so I did. And then, yeah, just it was like the best thing that's ever happened to the company. And then from day one, we were just global and we only like expanded from there. 

Tom: You said something really, really profound to me anyway. I think Courtney and let's let's talk about it for a second. So, yes, specific to ads, you were like I didn't really know anything about it, so I just kind of did it. But like looking at this as a theme, it sounds like this foray into you leading a very large market leading global brand was not an accident, but it's happened very organically and it's grown over time. And it wasn't. What you'd set out to do is I'm going to be a founder of a global lash brand. And am I right in that? Is that. 

Courtney: Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I think the whole thing has just been kind of like trudging forward and it is what it is kind of thing. 

Tom: OK, I love that. And so if we take the theme of the ads and we extrapolate a bit, you're essentially saying that knowledge and experience are not necessarily equal to just going for it, to following what happens and letting growth and vision build organically? 

Courtney: Yeah, like, I think just my whole mindset as a CEO, which is bizarre to me. Like, if you would have told me in high school, like I was the student in high school that struggled academically, I was like I was always a leader. I was always like the captain of all the sports teams. And I was student council president and I was this and that. But academically, I really, really struggled. And my teachers would always say, like, if you could just apply yourself like you're so smart, just apply yourself. And I'm like, well, I don't want to apply myself to social studies. You know, I felt very boxed in. And then as I, I guess, kind of realized that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. But it wasn't even really a realization. It was just kind of you started it and did it. I guess the whole mindset is that there isn't such a thing as a failure. And I still I still kind of lead like that where it's just like, let's just do it and then let's see how it goes. And then if it's a flop, right. Like I think there's flops. I don't think there's failures. Your failures are going to be those stepping stones that teach you what you need to be taught. But I'm such a tactile learning person that I need to just do it and then I'll learn the lesson and then it won't happen again. So that's when it kind of my career in a nutshell is just kind of trying this. Does it work? No. OK, what did I learn from it? OK, let's use that moving forward and try again. 

Tom: I think that's such good advice. So if if you were a dinosaur you would be a velociraptor.

Courtney: Is that that's the really smart one, but 

Tom: Yeah, it just keeps trying different parts of the fence before it breaks through. 

Courtney I would be a velociraptor. 

Tom: That's my favorite dinosaur. 

Kyle: It's the title of this episode. 

Courtney: Courtney Buhler. The Velociraptor. 

Kyle: The Velociraptor. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tom: And that might be the segment. Kyle, if you were a dinosaur, what dinosaur would you be? 

Tom: All right, so to pull it back, though, out of the out of the Cretaceous period, I'm looking at that kind of organic growth, that CEO mindset. What are some of the things that you feel give you or founder CEOs a unique edge in their respective spaces? 

Courtney: I think for me, like lots of the success that came from the early days of Sugarlash PRO was the fact that I was so inherently tied to being a lash artist myself. So being on the other side of it and, you know, starting small, like the cool thing about me, I guess, is that I've been on every single side that you can be in on in the lash industry. I had the solo based home based like just just me lashing out of a spare bedroom. And then I had a larger scale home-based business and then I had a commercial space. And then I was going to open up another space. And then we decided not to do that just because it was a lot of work. But knowing all those pain points, like inherently as a lash artist and all the holes in the industry and all the frustrations that I would come up against. So like for me, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, lash companies just need to keep stock. There was so many times that I was like, they're out of stock. And not that we've been perfect with Sugarlash PRO, but I know for sure that the pillars and the things that would steer me away from doing business with the company. And so I make sure that those are the pillars that we're always keeping in mind. There was other things like in the lash industry, lots of companies at that time when we kind of got started, it was like if you took that training, you had to sign a contract to say that you'd exclusively use their products like forever or you'd lose your certification, which I was like, that's crazy. Like about just give such companies such a like a loophole just to not stay innovative and not stay on it. And I was like, you guys can use whatever you want. I'll have the best product. But if you want to use other brands, then that's fine. But I was like so confident and what we are bringing to the table that I knew that they'd use our product anyway. So I never wanted to like, lock people in or make them feel like they had to go with us so that they're making this big decision of like who to get in bed with, so to speak. It was just going to be this organic thing. And people do still like they use Sugarlash and then they'll kind of go around and try other people lash artist the industry is like very volatile people because it's so new still. Right. So people haven't, like, made up their minds. Everyone wants the newest, greatest thing. So people will bounce around. But I think just making sure that you have what they need and then giving amazing customer service and an amazing experience and they're always going to come back no matter if they try other people or not. 

Tom: You know, a lot of DTC brands that we've been talking to, whether they saw hardship or maybe some of the best times of their lives, 2020 has been a really friggin weird year. What were some of the big things that you had to come face to face with as a CEO in pivoting with SLP with like expectations or plans or product lines or like you tell us? But what did that what did that year bring and what did you and are you still kind of working with in terms of meeting what was required of you and the brand? 

Courtney: Yeah, it was definitely a year for the books, like for everybody. We in the history of, like, Sugarlash, we've never laid anyone off or had to make any of those calls. And it was definitely new territory. Like, we went in the personal services industry. We are, I guess, B2C, but our our consumer is still a business. So it's kind of B2B. It's kind of B2C. It's kind of a weird flow there. But with that said, at the beginning, when stuff when covid was hitting and it was like we knew it was getting worse and worse and worse at that point, like my team was like, what are we going to do? We should do a big sale on lashes. We should do this. And I was like, I remember. Like, I can I can very clearly remember it. I was at my house and whenever I live on an acreage like on a lake and I was just I was just so stressed and I always just go down by the water, like when I am stressed. And I was like looking at the water. And I, I was just like, I can do a sale or I can do whatever. But the fact of the matter is, like, I know that it's going to get worse and I know that they shouldn't be doing lashes. But no one had said that yet. Like there was no mandates. It was just like obviously we shouldn't be doing personal services at this point with what information we have. Right. And so I had to convince my team, but I did. I wrote out a big I want to say like presidential address, but I was kind of like that to be like, we don't know what we're dealing with here. Like, this doesn't look great. Consider like consider stepping away from lashing now. And what I did was we have these online courses with our academy. We were the first company in the world to do like a full blown online academy. And so we have these courses. And so what I did was I said. May we consider stepping away from lashing and pouring some effort into education so that when we get back to normal, then you can be stronger than ever? It's what I did was give away our lash, of course, which was like a three hundred dollar course. I gave it away to anyone who wanted it and we had in one day eighty four hundred people sign up for that free course, which again you could look at as a loss to say OK, eighty four hundred times three hundred dollars for the skill. But what we did then was we gained the respect and the trust of all those people. It introduced all those people to our online academy that maybe hadn't taken a course before, and then that started generating revenue because that's what really kept us afloat during covid was our online courses, right, when people couldn't do the services. So we have that to fall back on. And then what happened was we actually refilmed that added like four new modules to it. Then in just recently, we offered a forty nine dollar upgrade, which then generated like tons of revenue for us just because we had given away that free thing, which was a really cool kind of full circle thing. That was never the intention. It was just always to support them in the weird time. But then it was it was cool too, that they got an upgrade, we got some revenue. And then it was just kind of this like, I don't know, the cool support circle that we had going on. 

Tom: Yeah, that's I mean, that's encouraging stuff and one of my bigger takeaways and like just keeping the big picture in mind, keeping keeping the people on the other side of all of this in mind, they're not just customers. These are these are real humans. They're they're going through something scary and uncertain as well. And what I find encouraging of that is just that as a leader, you're you're keeping the big picture, the long term in mind, not just, you know, right now and and making a flash sale or lash sale, I should say. That was bad. Sorry, but but yeah. Just really, really understanding why you're doing this in the first place and keeping that at the forefront of your vision for the future. 

Courtney: Absolutely. And it was, you know, at the same time, like, we have so many struggles with our with our warehouse and then headquarters that is yet to open. And we had lots of stuff. We went down just just so everyone knows how big the impact was. Like we went from 40 to staff down to six during that period. So it was just it was so it was like, yeah, it was it was rough, rough stuff. But at the end of the day it was like, OK, we need to make these, you know, these really tough decisions in order to keep the company alive so that when we are better, we can all come back. But if we try and hold on to you guys for too long, it's going to drive us into the ground. We might not have anything to come back to. And it was a very, very real fear that it was like because we were just yeah, we weren't making enough money to to pay bills like at all, but happy to say that they're all back and we're we're back at capacity. And California just opened and all of our and our Ontario's opening. There's lots of our key markets that just opened up in the last couple of weeks, which has been like such a breath of fresh air. 

Tom: So in on that, I guess, Courtney, with I mean, you know, you've got a president and Kim, she's awesome. But there's still this mantle of leadership that you that you hold, that you have that you sort of just described. You know, you you go to the lake to think or you need to sort of just unplug for a bit and think about the customer. But are there times where you feel alone or in a place of solitude, being the founder, being the sole person that kind of holds this and we've likened our companies to children's you know, it's these are our baby. Yeah. Do you ever feel alone in having that or not? And what do you do to to to balance 

Courtney: Balance at all? 

Courtney: You know, I do feel alone in the in the way that there's not a lot of people globally that are doing stuff on as large of a scale as Sugarlash is. And so there is times where it does feel lonely, where it's like most people in the lash industry, even if they have kind of an academy, it's just kind of like one off trainings or the launch, like a product or two. It is a lot of responsibility to be literally to be trying to be the end all, be all for everyone in the industry. But with that said, I really do feel like I was way more lonely at the beginning. Like I would say the first five and a half years were people were like, I don't like getting emails at 3:00 a.m. and I don't like that you're not in the office all the time. And I don't like but it was like for the first five and a half years, I think I really tried to be the leader that people wanted me to be, if that makes sense. I felt very. Kind of, I guess, like pigeon holed into will, the CEO gets to the office first and the CEO leaves last, and you don't email people after hours because that stresses them out. And it was always I always felt like I was doing stuff wrong. And then I kind of had this epiphany where it was like, oh, for sure, I'm neurotic. Like, for sure I am just like every entrepreneur and I'm ADD I'm all those things. Right. And I have manic episodes and I have all those things. But I just had to find my people. And it's only been like I've only had my people for like a year and a half. But once I got those people, they if I'm late to a meeting, they don't care if I'm taking a day at home when I want to work from there. They don't care. And it's just been like this thing. You kind of are trying to prove yourself all the time. And then you get to a certain level where you're like, I'm very happy with what I've done. I don't feel like I need to change, but I feel like I might need to make some changes with who's around me, because I think at the end of the day, like, you are who you are. Right? I'm not saying that I'm the best CEO and probably not, but at the same time, I could hire another CEO to take on the company. But would they understand everything that I understand about the lash artist and being on that other side? And no, they just don't. So it's like it's a very, very hard thing to wrap your head around. So for the time being, I am staying put. 

Kyle: It's so much about just like kind of being a leader that people want you to be, and I feel like it's like a Spider-Man quote, but like being, being the leader that you need to be, you're being the leader that people need. Is that a SpiderMan quote? 

Tom: Batman. It's The Dark Knight. But I appreciate what you were doing. 

Courtney: Thank you for your effort, Kyle. 

Kyle: Yeah. 

Courtney: You know, I yeah. I just think I think that at the beginning, I think it's so exciting and cool to try and be like, oh, like who are leaders of awesome companies. I want to be more like them. But you can do you get into this spiral of like comparison to be like, oh, I couldn't do that, or that's not how I lead. Or, you know, like I what I've learned about myself, I think as a founder and CEO is that there's like certain things that I absolutely need in staff. And it's like I can't handle rigidity. Like I don't like when people need like this ultra structure. I'm very just like bounce all over the place. And I do need people to kind of rein me in sometimes. But they can't resent me for my craziness like that because that's what makes me me. And that's what makes like when my brain is freed up, that's when all the magic happens. Right. But if someone tries to say, well, I made this eighty four page spreadsheet, can you fill it out like I just completely shut down and I can do it, but I'm not going to come up with any new exciting ideas and I'm not going to feel inspired and I'm not going to feel like happy with what I'm doing. So when I'm freed up and other people are like, she's not strong here, let me stand in the gap for her. So she has the space to do what she needs to do then. Then it's all gravy. Then I just velociraptor it up. 

Kyle: Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so good. Yes, that's good. I mean, like, OK, do you think because there's so much you touch on there, like the importance of like different strengths and teams and like kind of accepting each other as we are and leading with the strengths. Do you feel like your founderness. It allows you to to to step into that more easily or like does the founderness impact? You're leading or if you were a CEO, I guess, like put yourself CEO in another company, would you be the same way? 

Kyle: No, no, I think there's a lot that comes with the heart of it, like even when I think about starting another company, like I have so many companies on my brain, I'm very, very much a serial entrepreneur, which on a side note, you guys are also working on the website, for Plush and Oak which is like kind of a spin off of Sugarlash PRO. Right? But it's still always like the passion behind it for the lash industry or just for like women in general to empower themselves and make amazing money. Like, I think that business is business to some extent, but I definitely have because it's personal experience where it all comes from. It's just so much easier to be confident about the hole that you're filling, if that makes sense. Yeah, like I could go in and start any company and I could like I and I can like I do mentorships all the time and I can take any industry can be the tech industry, it can be whatever and we can blow it up like it's it's, you know, there is a certain formula to it. But as far as like spearheading new ideas, like you really, really have to understand your industry, like through and through and through and be like be on the commercial side of it and be in the home base side of it and be a solo artist and have staff and do all that stuff, because then you can really speak authoritatively to all the pain points. Right. But if some CEO comes in and it's like this is what we should do, it's like, well, why? Because it's the bottom line and that's the business thing or because, like, our customers need it. And I think that that's like the big, I guess like opportunity, the big strength that being a founder gives you. 

Tom: So on strengths then, I mean, I want to keep talking about you, but just for one second, what are some other brands or some founder, CEO leaders that you know, that are doing it right, that you look to and go, you know, who who do you look up to? And what about their their founderness? You know, speaks to you and inspires you. 

Courtney: I feel like sometimes I'm so you know, what I get inspiration from, I think for me, like I'm super into, like the fashion and beauty world just generally. And so, like, you look at brands like Glossier or even Fenty and like Emily Weiss worked, you know, she worked as an editor, which is super cool. So she was really inherently tied to the beauty industry and then just decided to take that on herself. There's a really amazing PR agency that we worked with a long time ago. We haven't but once we launch a consumer line, we will called Be Social. Ali Grant is her name. And it's just it's these people. I think what inspires me is people that come into an industry and they're like, it's the disruptors, right? Like you have to be bringing something so different. And if you're not, then just don't do it. But if you I always tell that, like, all the time, because it's like in the lash industry especially, it goes OK, you start as a lash artist, you get to a certain level, you're going to hire staff, then you're going to start training, then you're going to start a product line. And that's like the linear. These are the steps that everybody takes. It doesn't matter to me whether they do or whether they don't. But I always tell people if you're going to start a product line like it's a huge undertaking and you'd be better off to just come up with one or two products that are like such a disruption to what's going on. And just like fully like double down on that because you're going to get more traction, more attention. Right. Like the whole thing about business, I think, is just getting that attention. And when you have people's attention, then you can do whatever you want and it'll it'll go right. But if you're playing it safe all the time or you're not being innovative or you're not bringing something new to the table, then you're just going to get lost in the crowd and it's going to be a waste of your time. So, like, as far as, like reading books and leadership books or, you know, taking stuff, I learned from everywhere. I learn when I go to hotels and I have amazing customer service or I learn if I'm shopping in a Gucci and there's a super cool campaign or, you know, just design stuff generally. I think I just I'm so visual that I, I get inspired by, you know, everything. What can you take from a great business and what can you how can you apply it to your business even if you've been working with you guys like even and this is not just to say this on this podcast, but like I I've been in business for so long and we've done so many website build and we've done whatever. And it's like I've never had an experience like I've had with with PBJ, like it's been so smooth and so like everyone's so supportive. But then they're also like, okay, you're late on this. Like we need it. But it's not in like a it's not even like I'm upset way. It's like status in risk or whatever it is. 

Tom: We care about you. Yeah. 

Courtney: Yeah. We really want to do this. So please don't screw it up. But it's, it's just those things and it's like even from working with you guys, it's those those emails are those status updates. Now I'm going to take that, I'm going to apply that to Plush and Oak, because people would like to know the status of their beds. And it's like it's that nice communication to know, OK, you've invested into this. We we have our eyes on it. We know how it's doing at any point. It's not wondering, OK, well, are they working on a million other projects that are just falling to the wayside? It always feels like very, very attentive and focused, which I've loved. And I've taken stuff from that. So I, I think I just pull from everywhere 

Tom: Pull away. It's it's probably a really good approach and belief. And it's something we believe we've talked about on one of the previous episodes where we really do believe good ideas come from everywhere. So why not? 

Courtney: Yeah, everyone's got stuff figured out. No one has everything figured out. But if you can take everyone's strengths and pull it into your business, then you're better for it for sure. 

Kyle: I like that. Also, we'll send the check to you later for that nice little testimonial 

Courtney: Thank you.

Kyle: Just let us know where to send it. 

Courtney: PBJ for life. 

Tom: You're getting the tattoo of that after we're done, right? 

Courtney: Yes. We're going to go together. 

Tom: OK, perfect. 

Courtney: It'll be Velociraptors with PBJ for Life on the chest. 

Tom: We're going to sell that on our soon to be launched swag shop. 

Courtney: I need a new Zoom background, too. 

Tom: OK, well, that we can do. OK. I'm just making a little sketch here to remind me to get that artwork done.

Kyle: Just get tattoo with the same background, perfect 

Tom: PBG four like the number four, right? Yeah. LIFE, yeah, of course. Life. OK, all right. The doodle the doodle is done. And now we can get back to work. Thank you. 

Kyle: I was going to ask him in all of that, when does being a founder get in the way? 

Courtney: I think that I mean, I think that it it hurts in the actual running of the business like I am. I've definitely got us into trouble with them, you know, overspending here or over what's the word I'm looking for overextending ourselves with certain things because I'm not actually money driven. I'm like results and growth driven. And so I'll do all the time whatever to get the growth. And that always comes with supporting the artist. But as far as like internally, like I, I still to this day struggle through financial meetings and I struggle through those spreadsheets and everything that I need to do on that side that's not creative and is more like meticulous and boring. But, you know, I am also very, very aware that I'm not great there. And so when I hire a CFO who now I have a great CFO. He knows to like, I mean, essentially dumb it down as much as he can because I'm not smart there. And so as long as he's presenting stuff and then I have him also there who's very strong. And so as long as I have those people that are in charge of it that are driving the bottom line, I'll always draw the drive, the top line. And it works really well that way.  

Tom: So then what's the most important thing that you do on a day to day basis that keeps the company attuned to the values, the mission, the the focus in the future, while also managing the bottom line? 

Courtney: I think for me, like my strong point is, is definitely a strategist and it's more on the marketing side and visuals, that's always been what Sugarlash PRO apart. Like even from day one. Even if I was to take you back to the first campaign that we ever shot, which, by the way, was like, will you guys know the brand well enough to know that it's like dark and rainy, like Tom Ford or Mac Cosmetics or those kind of things? But at the beginning it was pink and my first photoshoot was like, oh, girls with eyelashes and like sprinkles on their lips. And I was playing on the Sugarlash things that we had like sugar and sprinkles. And it's so not representative of the brand now, but it was so different at the time. Right. Like it was just eye catching at the time. And so I think what I am the most strung out and what I what I still do kind of day to day and make sure that I'm doing is just making sure that those visuals are always on point. The branding is always on point in. The marketing is good. I still kind of I'm the founder and then I'm I'm the marketing director as well. And I don't think I've tried to give up that piece before, but it just doesn't work. I think I think that's my superpower. That's my secret sauce is just making sure that everything that we do is like I hate the word edgy because I feel like it's so overused, but somewhat edgy, somewhat thought-provoking, somewhat controversial. We try and do images that aren't necessarily just, you know, pretty that you'd pass by. And there's a million pretty images, but doing stuff that's like weird. We if you look at our campaigns, it's like lots of mess. So there's powder's or there's dripping or there's face pulling or whatever. And they're always met with like 80 percent love and 20 percent hate. But I'm like I'm good with that. You know, I would rather that than one hundred percent be like, that's pretty.

Tom: Well it's your get your attention. 

Courtney: Yeah. It's got to be like that. Like, what is this? And even if you hate it, it's OK, but it's still going to stick in your mind and you're still going to be thinking about Sugarlash not the end of the day. I think that's OK. 

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. That that's the thing you're trying to go for. And I'm also I mean, I'm really happy to hear you took inspiration from what sounds like a Saturday morning with my daughter. With powders everywhere, sprinkles and faces getting pulled, so you're welcome.

Courtney: it's it's like, well, I've got three kids, too. I don't know if you guys know that. 

Tom: Not three. No, I thought, well, now I know 

Courtney: I have three. So, yeah, 12. I've got 12 12 year old and nine year old and a six year old. So, yes, we are all about the adventure and the getting messy and all of us up. Yesterday we actually Jordan was snowboarding behind the Range Rover and we had we were in like two feet of snow when we got it stuck. So we spent the afternoon shoveling it out, just that you do it and you have fun. And when it goes wrong, you have just as much fun laughing about the fact that the Range Rover is stuck in the field and all the neighbors are driving by laughing at you. 

Tom: Yes, but you did something. 

Courtney: You did something you made and you learned a lesson. Now, I know not to go in that deep of snow when the snow is wet. So there you go. Check it out and check it off. 

Kyle: Now you snow. 

Tom: Now you snow.

Courtney: Now you snow.

Tom: Well, Courtney, that is a bit of an overwhelming load of brilliance from you, but I have no further questions and I think we could keep talking but. 

Courtney: We could. This is what I'm going to this is what I'm going to leave you off with, OK? 

Tom: I'm excited.

Courtney: OK, here's here's in a nutshell of all the founders or people that want to be founders and they don't. Now, here's the thing. I feel like at the end of the day. If you're honest with your capabilities and you are committed to doing the best that you can, every day, growth will just happen like is just a byproduct of the work. Right. And that's why Sugarlash has gotten so big. It's not because I wanted to own a company this big. Actually, there's like tons of times that I resent how big it's gotten because everything is slower, right? All these decisions are drawn out. I'm very, very much like a startup brain. But with that said, owning, I think who you are. Owning your limitations and your shortcomings, if you can do that and you don't get stuck in that minutia of doing the stuff that you're not good at, you're so much better for it. And I will leave you with one. My one secret is that know where you work best and know when you work best. And my little secret to almost every brilliant idea that I've ever come up with has been between 10 p.m. and 1 a.m. in a bathtub 

Tom: or in the shower. 

Courtney: Yeah, there is something about water. I think it's like it's like creative brains. And so, like in our headquarters that we're building, I have a bathtub in my office and my staff was like, yes, do it. Like, that's that's what you need. We all know that that's what do you think best either that or on planes are not going anywhere anytime soon. So so that's it. Like, that's that's the secret is just knowing. I think it's really, really just knowing who you are and knowing who your customer is and the rest just follows. 

Kyle: I love that. That is so good. 

Courtney: Bubble baths and yeah. Late nights. This was so fun guys. 

Kyle: That's a whole another like in a whole another topic. But like in terms of well 

Courtney: me and the bath

Tom: yeah well bubble baths, and late nights. I mean that's, that sounds like a good book. 

Kyle: I was going in like knowing yourself and like creating environments for genius and that kind of stuff. But let's just go with bubble baths and late nights like that. 

Tom: Then you go, you go where you're going to go Kyle. You big brontosaurus you. 

Kyle: For Courtney, Sugarlash PRO is built on an exceptional understanding of her customers' needs 

Tom: As a founder who had experienced similar pain points herself, she knew exactly what the product should deliver to give her customers a truly magical experience. 

Kyle: But it didn't come without trial and error. Courtney continually reinvents her tactics to make sure that Sugarlash PRO always stays relevant and on top. 

Tom: Thanks for sitting down with us, Courtney, and sharing your recipes for success. 

Kyle: And that's it for today's episode. We hope you found it helpful and gained some new ideas to make the brand you lead even better. 

Tom: And if you're looking for even more insights and recipes for success, make sure to follow us on social @CommerceChefs. 

Kyle: And remember to join the Commerce Chefs community launching this fall

Tom: Save your spot and join now at CommerceChefs.com/Community 

Kyle :In the meantime, we're currently deciding which spicy interview to share with you next. Make sure to tune back in on September 30th to find out who it is. 

Tom: And lastly, if you liked this episode and you want to support us, you know, you want to. Make sure to hit the subscribe button and leave us a five star rating and review. Until next time. This has been a dash of Tom

Kyle: and a pinch of Kyle and a spoonful of Courtney 

Tom: Will be cooking with you again in two weeks.