Omnichannel Recipe

.

Streaming here

Getting the scoop on leveraging joy, online, and in-store for customer benefit and real change. Rise and Shine! Episode 3 takes a big bite out of breakfast—the most important meal of the day. The guys enjoy a delicious chat with serial (cereal?) DTC leader, Flapjack-of-all-trades and Founder of Flourish Pancakes, Andrew Maida. They get the scoop on how joy and personality in brand can do so much good, the fluffy future of omnichannel success in the better-for-you food space, and how customer shopping habits might be tougher to flip than you might think. Good things take time in business, but this conversation—and Andrew’s pancakes—is ready to go goodness.

Learn more about our guest:

Andrew Maida, Founder of Flourish Pancakes

Transcript

Tom: Welcome to commerce chefs of quirky and thought provoking show for future focused commerce leaders. We're going to pick the world's most brilliant, inspiring, and driven D to C visionaries, the commerce chefs with riveting questions to uncover their secret ingredients at the intersection of passion, performance, and leadership impact.

Kyle: For the past decade, we've led teams of designers, strategists, and digital wizards at one of the leading e-com agencies in the country to help brave brands become during classes. 

Tom: And we're here to indefinitely borrow the strategies and pro tips that will make us all better leaders and make the brands we lead better to. Hey Kyle, when was the last time you had pancakes? 

Kyle: A couple of weeks ago. Why. 

Tom: Well, I made some yesterday, but the whole house ended up smelling like lavender. I think I might've used the wrong flower plus they were really thin and I don't like thin pancakes. Yeah. They creep me out big time. Anyway. I'm sure I'll get better at making them with practice.

Kyle: Last time I made pancakes, I dropped them on the floor right before I got to eat them. 

So that 

Tom: breakfast fell a little flat. 

Didn't it? Yeah, 

Kyle: I really flipped out. 

Tom: Hey Kyle, what did the pancake say to the waffle? 

Kyle: What's that Tom  someday. I want to have abs like that. Cause cause waffles are just they're paintings with abs. Well, yeah, well, you know, speaking of pancakes, no one quite stacks up to the Canadian king of pancakes, cereal, D to C leader and flap, Jack of all trades, the founder of flourish, pancakes, Andrew Meda. We're going to 

Tom: mix up a gooey bowl of protein packed points that are sure to help uncover the fluffy future of omni-channel success in the better for you food space.

Kyle: And how customer shopping habits might be tougher to flip. Then you think batter 

Tom: up. Hey, Kyle, that reminds me. Where was the one legged pancake 

invented where I hop. 

Kyle: Oh, that's yeah, that was bad, Tom. That's really bad. I think my update for pancake buttons is really done well 

Tom: for better or for worse. You you're stuck with me. Okay. Fine. Walk away. That's fine. Catch you on the flip side. Welcome to the show. Um, I would love it. If you could give us all a bit of a breakdown who you are, where you're from, what you do. I know that you are a flap Jack of all trades. Uh, we'd love to hear more about you from you. 

Kyle: That was, that was the best one of the whole day. Andrew 

Andrew: might 

Tom: as well get the best plan out of the way.

Andrew: Yeah, I kept that one. I just wrote that down in my, in my book. Yeah. So, Hey everyone. Thanks for having me tell him, Kyle. Um, my name's Andrew I'm from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and I'm the founder of flourish pancakes. Um, I am the chief flap, Jack of all trades, if I can reuse, recycle, um, and, uh, really what I'm all about is, um, you know, using e-commerce to build a better for you brands right now, a hundred percent focused on, on flourish.

I've had a background in e-commerce, uh, since I was 19 proudly, I can say I have. Had almost no jobs in my entire life. I've always, always worked for myself. Um, just really about building brands and connecting with consumers and selling really great. 

Tom: Love that. Yeah, I know that better for you. Space is something where we're also quite passionate about.

So, uh, I, I know we both look forward to hearing more about the story that you do have as the flap Jack of all trades. I should have, uh, yeah. Patent pending anyway. Um, so I think the big, the big question on our mind, uh, Andrew, we were chatting before this and just wanted to know why, uh, why pancakes, tell us a little bit about the flourish 

Andrew: story.

Yeah, it's a great question. So, as I said, uh, you know, I've been on my own since, uh, since I was 19, um, I come from a very loving, uh, immigrant Italian family, first-generation Italian family, um, and basically to take a step back, like my life was always, um, everything was, was taken care of. I tell people like my mom was basically.

Not only cooking me breakfast, but like brushing my teeth for me on the way out of my house. Um, and when I was younger, I moved out at a, at a really early age for somebody in my family. I could standard for us. You know, you get married, live in your parents' basements for a little while. And then next thing you know, you're 35 with two kids.

Um, so I was out at 20 and when I moved out, I just had no idea what was going on. I walked into this new house and it was. It was just blank space for me. I didn't know how to cook. I didn't know how to clean. I, I barely knew how to take care of myself. Um, and kind of the why pancakes is I resorted to, um, feeding myself the things.

I knew best. So for breakfast, that was Eggo waffles with Nutella, peanut butter and a coffee latte. So espresso with milk, probably another tablespoon of sugar. Um, and then throughout the day, I was just kind of like eating out of a rapper. So Tim Horton's drive through Starbucks McDonald's and I was running these other e-commerce businesses.

And I thought I was being really efficient and I was actually doing something bad for my body. Um, So my brother, who's a chef, uh, came up with the recipe for flourish and he said like, you look like crap. You feel like crap. You need to kind of, uh, get your, get your act together. Um, so I made you this recipe to replace your Eggos and it's easy enough.

Like some even you could do it, so anybody could do it. Um, just eat this every day. Trust me. And I was like, okay, this is little brother privilege right here. So thank you very much. Big brother. I had flourish, uh, every day for like two years until I started as a business. Um, and my dream was actually to replace Eggo waffles.

When I started, I actually wanted a frozen waffle brand. Um, but I fell in love with cooking a breakfast at home. I felt like making something felt better. So I decided that there was a, a better niche in pancakes and it was already helping me. So, you know, why change? Um, what was broken. Flourish became my 2050 commerce store, uh, at the age of 23. And then I kind of just dropped everything and just focused on this. 

Tom: I'm sorry, could you just repeat, did you say 25th 

Andrew: street? Yeah. I had 24 stores from 19 to 23. Some were good and some were bad, so not all great. Um, but I went through a lot of e-commerce. Uh, I was going 

Kyle: to say, gee, like, can you give us like a, uh, um, a bit of a smattering of what kinds of like things you were doing this 24 stores?

Andrew: Yeah. So it is everything. So, um, I was dropped shipping. Um, and then if stores would grow, I would take them and warehouse them in the U S I'd get actual packaging for it and start shipping it, um, from, from Canada or the states. So my biggest store was a phone case store. Uh, it was called Lux armor case.

Uh, the website's not up anymore, actually I lost the domain, but it's, it was L U X a R M O R case.com. Um, that one was pretty big, but I've done. Bath bombs, uh, leggings, I've done dog toys. Um, I had a kitty litter scooper called perfect kitty. That was pretty big. Um, and really just like following trends.

And I was mostly concerned about learning my, my e-commerce chops. And at that point it was never really about branding as much. It is now. And I'm sure you guys have seen, you know, the world evolved from just a product that does something for people to a brand that makes people feel something makes people feel good, but also has a product for sale and a community.

Um, so I've kind of been on both sides of that. Um, with a whole boatload of stuff beforehand, but now flourish pancakes. Yeah. That's sweet. 

Kyle: I was kind of segues into something we were curious about, which was, was talking about brand. And maybe you could speak to why you think that's, you've seen that shift being so important now and specifically with flourish, knowing how much personality and lightheartedness and joy is in the brand. Tell us more about that angle and how that you know, is important 

Andrew: to you? Yeah, it's, it's, um, definitely really important to me as a founder and I think it needs to be the founders number one thing that they're thinking about maybe right on par with product or even, even right before a product. Um, and I think the reason this shift happened is because of people like me when I was 19, 20 years old, just drop shipping and taking products and.

You know, selling them to people with kind of no background or brand behind it. So I've seen, I've personally seen. Brandless brands grow and fall and grow and fall. Um, you know, and, and that was something that I felt like was really tough to handle, uh, as an entrepreneur. And I've also been on the other side of it where I've bought something from a company and then found out that they, you know, stand for nothing.

And my money is just kind of in this internet. Metaverse Missy abyss now it's, it's gone. Um, so it's, it's so important to have a strong brand because. It tells people really who you are. And I think flourish has a lot of me in it. Um, and if you're selling something that you would sell to yourself and you can find other people that connect with that, it makes your job a lot easier, but also it just lets people know that, you know, their money is going to a good place and the product that's coming back to them is of equal or greater value.

Um, And you guys must see it all the time, right. With, uh, recreating or starting brands and helping them kind of find that north. Yeah, I think it's, um, 

Tom: maybe one of the most important and encouraging shifts that is continuing to stay. Uh, so, so definitely not something that is just a trend anymore. Um, but brands that are going to survive, let alone thrive, um, are ones that are.

Brand first and we don't move that necessarily, although we're speaking yeah. From a design capacity. Um, I don't mean the logo. I don't mean the typeface and the colors and the art direction. I mean, it really is. What is it that we stand for? What do we believe in who are we trying to, uh, attribute ourselves with?

Uh, and what kind of community and impact are we trying to build? Um, so you're, you're absolutely on point, uh, right on the burner as it were. You know how, how that brand shows up, how the personality is reflected, certainly is different from, from brand to brand. But I, I love that comment about it being the founder's responsibility first and foremost, even over and above product.

Um, To, to focus on brand. Uh, so yeah, I mean, thank you for bringing that forward. Um, it does sound super nerdy, but I'm reading a book right now by one of the co-founders of red antler, which has probably gotta be one of the hottest branding agencies in the U S um, but, uh, she speaks about this in the entire first two chapters, um, being the founders responsible.

And the most important thing that you need to not only start with, uh, but lead with, throughout the growth, 

Andrew: um, of that, of that company. So you're reading obsessed, right? I am reading obsessed. Yes. I have it right behind me and I'm looking at it and it's, it's mocking me because I haven't cracked it open yet. So thanks for the reminder. I'm going to get through it. Um, but one thing, 

Kyle: one thing, 

Andrew: one thing you said though, is. No look, it's not about color or design. And, and I don't even think I mentioned that when I was answering your last question. And I think that, um, all that stuff is, is important for sure. Um, but like you said, brand is not that right.

That is something that comes of having a great brand strategy. And even for us where we're, we're nowhere near. Perfect. Um, there are many, many brands. Have their north star pinpointed better than we do. And I think there is a ton of brands, especially in Canadian CPG that are communicating with customers in a better way.

Um, but one thing that I think is important is that, um, founders are trying and that they're actually putting themselves into it because I remember before flourish. And even when I started, I made my first packaging, um, on Upwork for. 35 bucks. And, um, I remember getting on the phone with branding agencies and speaking to my advisors and saying, look, I don't understand what I'm buying.

They're telling me that it's 10,000 or 50,000 or a hundred thousand, whatever the number is, but I don't really get like, which picture am I buying? Are they going to send me photos of what it's going to look like? And I just never really understood what that dynamic was like. And when I speak to other founders, I think that a lot of us still. Feel that way, like branding escapes them. And that's why it's important to have a really good, really good partner for it. Or just kind of sit down and, or go on a retreat and just really kind of hammer it out. 

Tom: It's interesting because so here, here's a challenge I put forward and I do, I do want to know your thoughts on this, Andrew, but.

I find that interesting and believe me, Kyle and I come across the very, the very same thing of, um, you know, we're, we're talking about this with prospects, let's say, or people that want to work with PB and J sorta like, well, yeah, but like, what are the, what are the deliverables? Like what are the things that you get?

And, and when we talk about brand at a, at a true deep foundational level, um, there's a lot of it that is intangible. The interesting dichotomy though, or the tension point here. Um, consumers understand brand better than founders seem to, or their brands seem to consumers know they feel they Intuit what brand means, even though they can't articulate it.

And I probably nine out of 10 people can't articulate it, but they absolutely know what brand is and what it means. And we see this in every case study we look at. So how, how do you think you've got. And, and for being vulnerable, first of all, we'd say thank you. But, um, you know, not fully knowing, not, not really having a full handle on what brand really is.

How do you think that you're connecting that still on some level, because you must be flourished is doing well. It's a flourishing. Um, I apologize for that. I won't do it again. Um, so how, how do you see this showing up with any kind of touch points that you have with your customers or feedback with your 

Andrew: customers?

Yeah, I think that, um, for us, the way that we get brand across the customers is, is through, e-commerce like we're an omni-channel company, but we like to have that first touch point online. And I think that although digital, we try to get as much of ourselves across, um, just using like direct communication channels with customers, right.

Like when I said we're not perfect, I think a lot of. Like packaging could use some work. Maybe social could use some work, but I think the way that we communicate is really honest. Um, and it's really ourselves and I think that's how customers feel and experience our brand. Um, even, you know, when we were chatting beforehand, I was like, guys, I might drop a couple of swear words here and there.

Like, those are things that we just, we just write emails. We just write text messages or write copy on our websites. And don't think about it as sales. We just think about. Chatting with a friend. And I think that's where we come across. And that's what we're noticing aside from product is what's most important to our customers is that in our space, in the pancake mix category, um, everything is very dated and very slowly.

So for us, the opportunity there to engage with customers, engage with them digitally and honestly, um, and then kind of like a fresh way is really important for them, aside from what they look for in the product, sleepy, such a great word. It's a perfect 

Kyle: description for, for the space you're in. So I like that's, it's a good noticing though. I think when you said that, I was like, oh yeah, 

Andrew: it is really sleepy. There's not much going on,

especially in Canada. Uh, You know, in the U S it's a little more competitive, but when we go to buyer meetings, um, you're always so scared as a, as a founder walking into a, you know, like a Loblaws or a Costco and like nothing that they do, it's just, it's so important for your business. Right. You're so nervous.

Um, but sometimes I feel like in our category, um, I can go in there thinking like we're probably one of the only brands that are going to be presenting for this category that have some sort of scale in camp. Um, and that makes me feel a little bit better. Right. Like if I was a bar company, um, I'd be shaking every single day, like what is going to happen to my business?

Cause that's so like Uber competitive and it's so forward compared to other parts of the grocery store, like pancake mix or, um, like produce kind of is just another kind of thing. That's just always been there. Right. And Jamaima, or pro milling company is just there. Yeah. 

Kyle: Uh, this is a bit of a direction.

Differently than we're going to go. But I'm curious as to know on that note and like the buyer meetings and the brand differentiation, have you, did you find the brand differentiation kind of going from sleepy to. Awake, uh, or not sleepy, um, helped kind of like punch you through, like to enter into the market.

Andrew: Yeah, most definitely. I think what we did with our packaging, um, like, because that's what people see. Like that's what the buyer sees is very different than what most food companies do. Um, I actually took a lot of inspiration from, from halo. Um, sorry to cut a long way to get around to your question. But our packaging is SPO is very, e-commerce like you're on our site.

You already know you're buying protein pancake mix. So now it was mostly what is the flavor I'm buying? So like buttermilk. The background represents buttermilk chocolate has like chocolate chips on it. Um, but they're illustrations. There's no big picture of pancakes. There's no like one giant word describing what the product is.

It actually breaks a lot of the laws of grocery store food package. And we get either side of the spectrum. Like nobody's indifferent about our packaging in a buyer meeting. They either love it or they just really want us to change it. And we won't. Um, but that's one of the things that when you see us on shelf, um, in the natural category, everything is very 10 or calm and sterile, and we're very bright, yellow, blue brown with pink.

Um, And then in the conventional category, everyone's just used to seeing red. Like it's just an Jamaima. So it's just red, everywhere. And then like three rows of red boxes and then like six rows of a brown syrup with, with a red logo on the front. So having yellow, blue, brown purple, um, that really helped us stand out.

And it's actually one of the slides that we use in our retail presentation is a picture of us on shelf with all these other brands. And then, uh, it goes into a heat. So it kind of like does a little transition and then you see our colors pop out the slide titles, like stand out presence on shelf. Um, and I think that really helps because when, when the heat map kind of goes away and then you're like, yeah, that's exactly where my eye goes. This giant yellow package. Yeah. You're like a Flamingo in a snowstorm. Yeah. Yeah. You're really good at these he's 

Kyle: pulling on today. Honestly, like part of the, part of his like full-time job, I think has to just be like the. Analogies and ponds. It's it's incredible injury. You've got to join some teammates.

That's going to say, tell him before, before he jumped into it was, you know, we talk about this a lot and it's one of the such a difficult thing with branding is like, you need to, you need to fit in, but you need to stand out. Um, and so it needs to like belong in the category, like in the sense where you're following some conventions, but we, we can so often get lost that we try to fit in so much that we forgot, or we forget that the brand is designed to help us stand out and actually having, I forget there's some brand like goober that said this, I think, but it's like, you know, great brands.

They. People love or hate it. Like they don't sit in the middle. And I think what you're, that's what you're saying. Right. It's a good if people hate it, because that means you're doing it right. Cause some people 

Andrew: love it. Okay. Yeah. And, and one of my advisors, um, whoever we're working with for a while, he was leading a big CPG company and, um, he, he says that everything, the CEO's role is always about creating.

Um, so he'll use this for, um, he'll use this for like employee matters. Right. And, um, he seemed like it's not always supposed to be being really hard on the team and it's always not supposed to be letting them off easy if they can't do something. How do you create tension to bring the best out of them?

Right. And then with brand, he uses tension a lot. Um, Saying things like how do you have a positioning that creates tension, right? It doesn't need that. Doesn't need to be a negative word, like tension sounds kind of scary and nerve wracking, but just that sort of like, what is that that's different than what I've seen before, while still fitting in? Um, exactly what you're saying, Kyle. So I think his analogy for, for tension is, is a really good one that people can kind of carry. And I carry a lot, um, throughout the work day. That's awesome. 

Tom: And I, you know, I think you're speaking with two individuals that, uh, it's one of my favorite words, maybe top five is the word tension. Um, what 

Andrew: would you really top? Ten one, two, four, oh 

Tom: boy. That's another podcast. Cause I really have to dig 

Andrew: into why Jack of all trades is number one,

Tom: but tension is literally what holds the universe together. Um, you have. You have components of Adams. And I mean, this is, this is not a science podcast, but even when you think about structures that we understand and take for granted every day, like bridges, things that are meant to get us from one way to another, where there isn't supposed to be something, um, tension is what holds.

Hold things together. You have competing forces. It's what allows us to fly it's what's allows us to walk with friction. Um, so yeah, I think anybody truly anybody that looks at tension as a categorically bad thing, uh, is, is missing the beauty of what it can do. Um, to unlock that and to live with it. And Seth Godin talks a lot about tension, um, being one of the key fabric, uh, components of an entrepreneur or a creative or somebody who's empathetic and caring. Um, so I'm just, I'm always happy to, to touch on that and dive into it. 

Andrew: Um, but I love the positive outlook you have. That's awesome. 

Tom: And you have to, you have to, um, so that kinda got me thinking, uh, The last two years have been interesting. And maybe that's an understatement for sure. I know your omni-channel and I know I'm a large part of your success in growth in at least in the awareness of the flourish pancake brand has been in the retail kind of grocery space. Um, but what have you seen over the last two years there has, like, there's got to have been some really big shifts. 

Andrew: Yeah. D do you mean shifts for e-comm or do you mean shifts for retail? 

Tom: Well, I guess both because they, they kind of both feed into the growth of flourish as a, as a brand overall. And, and maybe, maybe I'll, I'll dig in a little deeper and say, what have you seen in terms of customer behavior and expectations?

As it relates to the last two years and how you've seen that tension live between these two channels that have played very specific roles in the past that have probably been blurred a lot 

Andrew: more. Yeah. I think that, um, you know, the last two years have done a lot in terms of, um, isolating people or keeping them in their homes and moving them to e-commerce.

And then also the new habits that they've formed. Work from home and then with like for businesses, inflationary pressure. Um, so there's a ton. I feel like this is, I need three hours to answer, but I think one way, uh, we can sum this up for e-commerce and for retail is, is access. Um, consumers just want more.

Faster better, easier access to their products and for e-commerce, you know, that means Brent bringing brands online that were never online before having marketplaces with all the best products. Uh, and you see the best retail stores in the food space doing that now. Um, and for us, you know, offering different options to help people.

Save money or get more products faster, um, in this kind of environment, which is high pressure. So that's like bundling and saving, um, subscribing, sorry. I know it's not Brandy stuff. And then on the retail side, access has transformed the space in terms of, uh, combining natural and conventional sets. Right?

One of the things we do in Canada in food retail is we usually isolate natural products from conventional. Because we, well, I shouldn't say we have not a grocer, but I think grocers think that people need the aisle to differentiate what they're shopping for. Um, but in the states, a lot of, um, Grocery store.

Some of the best grocery stores actually have integrated sets. Right? So like us Kodiak cakes, Birch benders, right beside this quick hungry, hungry. Wow. I can't speak. Sorry. Hungry Jack and ed Jamaima. Um, and customers have formed these new habits over the last two years. They've gotten a lot closer with brands digitally.

And now in retail, they want to find them where they've been finding, you know, their other products. They don't want natural and conventional sets. So we're seeing huge shifts across Canada where like some places where we've only been in natural, they're integrating us into conventional or dual placing us.

So it's a good opportunity for brands. And actually like two of the cornerstones of our business are leading the business with e-commerce. Even though, like, as you said, most of our growth actually comes from retail. We always want to have that first touch point online so we can drive that brand home and create that digital experience for customers.

And then the other one is actually always being in the conventional category. I've never understood why pancakes need to have two different spots in the store. Like put my 10 99. Premium better for you brand beside the 2 99, um, conventional brand and let customers buy it anyways because the product has more value than the price actually offers and it's better for them, right?

So like we're offering good value despite the price competition. And those are two things that we've actually always pushed here at flourish, like econ first and being in conventional. And I've gotten so much slack about both of those things. And I think they're kind of now. Um, coming into the, to the greater category and not trying to pat myself on the back, um, you know, it could have went the other way, but I think we're seeing a lot of that in food.

Kyle: Wow. That's really interesting. And speaking of that better for you food space, I mean, you talk a lot about that value, you know, and kind of pinning it against, say those that aren't in the better for you food space, like a traditional pancake, but how do you stand out when you're, when you're paired up against the. In your space, like what kind of differentiates you and 

Andrew: what's worked what hasn't yeah, I think for us, um, you know, you only have a split second to get customers to notice your product on shelf. And for us, what we use to sell into retailers is that e-commerce first strategy. That's been what I've just been like riding for the last three years.

So we like to think that. Um, majority of our customers who are purchasing in store have actually first purchased online and we've built a really robust framework where we can acquire customers online, and then we give them choice by giving them two separate offers after their second purchase. Do you want to be a retail shop?

To simplify what we asked you want to be a retail shopper or do you want to be an e-commerce shopper? And then if they choose the retail route, we now have the distribution across the country to say like, Hey, here's a $1 coupon to your closest Longo's Loblaws, Costco, whatever it might be. Um, so I actually like to think that we're not necessarily competing for mine time at the grocery store.

We look at flourish as a plan purchase item. So. How do we get people to go to the grocery store and say milk, eggs, flourish, pancakes. Right. And in our set, usually there's a sign above the pancake mix section that says pancake mix. I'm like the six other things that they sell in the aisle. So that's one of the reasons why we always push for conventional cars in grocery stores.

There will be a pancake mix sign. But in the natural set of those grocery stores, it'll say baking needs or baking mixes or healthy baking gluten-free baking. Um, so people look up because they're on a plan purchase and they're like, where's flourish, here's pancake mix. They go to the Andrew Maima and then they call and they're like, Andrew, I can't find your products in this store.

And I'm like, trust me, we're there. We might just be here, here, here. Um, so we really try to control. Purchase funnel become a plan purchase for the customer. So we don't have to compete at all on shelf because grocery is just too expensive. And, you know, we, we can't afford to do those things. We'd rather put all the value into the product.

Tom: I love, I love hearing you talk about value and I mean, that's a whole other, I think that's a whole other topic altogether, but I think allowing the customer to make the choice, that feels right for them. You're putting. You know, you putting everything out on the shelf on the line, um, and letting them choose based on what's important and valuable for them.

Um, but, but let's, um, let's double click on that because I I'll be candid. I'm not sure that I have heard that strategy before from an econ. Brand. And we, uh, believe me, we work with hundreds of them. So you're telling me, you know, we're acquiring, we're becoming aware online and you are by choice providing a pathway or a buyer journey that actually starts to lead off the site. If that's more. And appealing to them. We'll drive directly 

Andrew: to grocery. Yeah. In order space, it's, it's, um, I think a unique strategy, but also one that the space calls for just because, um, you know, even though we've grown up with the internet, it's still pretty, pretty new. Um, people are comfortable buying lots of things.

Online food is probably one of the items that they're less comfortable with buying online. So we say that. Um, awareness, consideration and conversion or trial happened online. Um, and then repeat purchase and retention happens in the grocery store. So if you can make it into somebody's shopping cart and you can stay there, it's really valuable for you as a brand.

Um, when they first buy online, like we'll call that our digital demo, right? So I can go to a grocery store and I can pay $500 for somebody to stand there. Demo my products, probably not even a 10th as well as, as we could have, if the team was there themselves and give out a free sample and maybe somebody buys, but if I can sell products online, um, even though it might not be profitable for us to sell online, just with the current environment, it's super tough.

I can get people to. Try my products actually buy in and be committed and then spend some time with us learning about the brand, right? Following on Instagram, answering surveys, getting cool, like treats and access and things, and then saying, Hey, you know, this is also available in your grocery store. If you're like every other person in the world, you grocery shop.

So these are all the places you can find us. Or, you know, we're always here for you to buy online, subscribe and save and never think about it. Or like we'll remind you in 45 days. When it's time to come back and top up. Um, and this is because we've positioned our product as a high use. As opposed to that, like Sunday morning meal occasion.

Yep. So we're finding that people are actually going through like our minimum for free shipping for bags. They're going through four bags of pancake mix, way faster than any other brand. It might take you four years to go through four boxes of antibiotics where it might take you like 45 days to go through four bags of flourish.

Although they're the same size. Um, we just have the nutritional profile. Encourages people to eat it more often. And then the marketing and the strategy to kind of educate them that they can do that with pancakes, which is never really seen before. So why not let that happen in grocery? Right. If they're going to be buying every week, why not let them spend, you know, 10 bucks every week instead of 45 bucks in a one, one shop purchase. Okay. I like that. And who doesn't 

Tom: have that, you know, one third full box of aunt Jemima pancake mix. 

Andrew: I haven't, I keep it on my dresser every morning. I just wake up and I glare at it and then I go to work and I'm like, that's right. 

Kyle: And it, and a box of frozen Eggos. It just say there's a reminder of the origin story.

Andrew: Yeah, mine wouldn't scavenge. 

Kyle: Oh, speaking of like, yeah, things just in your, in your drawer. I opened up our pantry drawer the other day and I noticed a bag of flourish pancakes, and it was like, how did this get in here? I didn't, I didn't even know. And so somehow. Andrew at the store. Um, clearly it wasn't me cause I didn't know it was there, um, slid into someone's cart and I, I should look into how that happened, but he did, you found your way. So 

Andrew: I was like, yeah. Awesome. Um, yeah, it's weird. It's the story of shopping carts is, is strange, right? Because. They do all this optimization to try to make people put more items in their shopping cart. Like you've seen grocery stores have all different kinds of carts. Um, and you would think that it's just a metal box on wheels.

It's actually a really smart, um, it's a very highly tested item that grocery stores work with. But the thing that people can't get around is the average family will have their, um, 60 to 80 products that they buy. 92% of the time. Over like half a decade. So they're buying the exact same products every single week.

Um, and it's, it's very tough to actually get into that cart. Right. And if you can, you can stay there. Whereas online, you can have a lot of. Leaks in the bucket that you're always trying to fit. You know, you always hear e-com guys talk about that stuff. So, um, grocery can be really valuable and it just takes a little bit longer to build and you can't be as direct, but that's why we like to go direct first and then give people the option. Like give them the choice to kind of do whatever's easiest. Yep. That's so 

Kyle: interesting. And I can attest to that. The guy who buys the same marble cheese, every time he goes to the grocery store, even though there's 600 

Andrew: choices. Yeah. So it's because you actually forgot that you, that you bought it, but you still like it when you, when you run out, like they did this test with yogurt and they let us one half of the.

People go to the store and buy any kind of yogurt they wanted every single day, they'd had to have yogurt for breakfast. And then the other subset, they said, buy enough yogurt for the next. I think it was like two weeks or 30 days, however long they were running this test and the people who bought yogurt every single day at the grocery store.

Bought the same yogurt every single day as the first yogurt that they bought. And the other subset when they load it up exactly what you mean when they load it up, they bought a variety of yogurt and then didn't eat the ones that weren't their favorite flavor. Um, so it's interesting, like people's habits when they get into the grocery store, it's kind of like a frantic and.

You're like running around there. You're like, where is chop? There's 9,000. Catch-ups here. Like I got to pick my kids up. Like somebody calling me like what is going on? And I think you just like, it's a habit, right? You're just Bing bang, bang, and then get out. 

Tom: Well, yeah, this is it's enlightening or, or sad.

I mean, our, our listeners can decide, but, uh, it's like when, when I go grocery shopping compared to when my wife goes. The carts look very different. Let's say that. But even for the number of times, like if we still had to pay per text, uh, our, our carrier would be very happy when I go grocery shopping, because I always I'm like where the, where the fuck is this, this thing?

Oh, it's not island that thing. I was like, that doesn't make any sense, but you know, you have to get, if you have to get the exact same brand and product, um, yeah, if you don't know where it is, Man it's, uh, it's just a big experiment. I mean, it, at the end of the day, it's just a giant maze full of food and people just get in and get out, you know, if you're bringing your kids, like, like truly God help you.

You're probably yelling for them. And they're like climbing, you know, the cereal aisle because they want that cereal. You're like, are you kidding me? Yeah. So 

Andrew: I had. Don't go beat yourself up over it. I'm at a grocery store, like every single day. And when I go grocery shopping, I know where nothing is and it gets to the point where my girlfriend's like, you work in a grocery store pretty much.

Right. You need to figure this out because I'm like watching my show and I can't direct you around the logos, like the aisles, because there's just a hundred brands screaming at you. Like buy my product. Ah, I'm just looking for the Heinz ketchup and the flourish pancakes. Yeah. My wife calls me an 

Tom: old man because I get upset when they move things around.

Right. Just to keep such an old man. I was like, I am, I am not an old man. I'm just, I'm practical. Like why would they move it? I don't know where it is now. 

Andrew: Yeah, I agree. That's why we tell you. That's how I will always tell you where, 

Tom: okay. I'm, I'm happy to know this about you 

Kyle: and not that, not that these all aren't the points, but Andrew, I didn't want to miss your point was what part of what you're saying is like e-commerce and that direct to consumer experience provides the opportunity for brands to kind of break through those 

Andrew: habits. You put that in a really, I'm going to keep that too. That's a really, really good way to say it. I said it, 

Kyle: you also don't move the Heinz ketchup because Tom will literally punch you in the face, but that's the point that we need. Okay, cool. That's really interesting. Yeah. Breaking through the habit on a with e-commerce. Okay, 

Andrew: cool. Yeah. It's it's access, right? Like let's just get right to the consumer. Let's not go through. Um, let's just speak to them directly in the way that they want to be spoken to. And then if they like our products and they have the choice to buy it online and buy it in store, and this is the exact same thing that I say to grocery stores.

When we talk about, um, you know, organizing the sets as a brand, you always want to become the category captain, right? Like you want the grocery store to come to you and say like, what's going on in our set? What should we do? And we're fortunate enough to be a part of some of those conversations. And it's like scrap that natural.

Like there's so many great brands in there and just move them into where the other brands are. So people can have choice and expand the grocery store. Don't segregate everything. Right. So, um, clearly big choice advocate over here. Um, I haven't said choice so many times the last 39 minutes, I've heard, that's your choice in this conversation. Um, speaking of 

Tom: choice, and I know that you have probably learned and seen things along this, um, this journey, um, we always want to leave with just advice from, from you as a founder, Andrew, to the other founders. That are listening. What's some advice that you have 

Andrew: for those out there. I think I would say that, um, you know, slow is fast and don't get distracted by the.

Um, to build on that. Um, you know, when I first started, I tell everyone the story that like, I used to want to like tattoo my store, count on my forehead or like tattoo. Like I received venture capital, like across my face. And these things are just vanity metrics. Right. And if you go on LinkedIn, like everybody's raising money and everybody's doing great and everybody's on a private jet and everybody's IPO.

And like you're in your basement trying to sell a pancake mix, um, or a phone case or leggings or bath bombs and trying to build a great brand and do good for the world. Why am I not being rewarded for that? Right. So, um, I think that you can get tempted to like make mistakes because you want to rush. And I am definitely one of those people.

And I think earlier on in my career, I was like very distracted by the vanity of it all and like the raising money and all those things. But, um, They say that like build it and they will come is not a good marketing strategy. And I think it actually could be a perfect marketing strategy. If you have a great product and a great brand, um, you just need to kind of like put the time in and put your head down.

And if you really believe in what you're doing, it'll get you through all the tough times because it's never going to be perfect every single day. Um, so slow is fast and, and, uh, by Goodyear, Yeah, out of the noise. I get you. Your plugs plugs your first.com. 

Tom: Oh no. Well that will that come in the pancake mix. Like you used to get toys and cereals, 

Andrew: like the watch and the Kellogg's. Yeah. I used to break into boxes of cereal and steal the toys. Um, eventually from like general mills or Kellogg's I probably owe you. I love those things. That's such a great idea 

Kyle: though. I'm in, I'm ordering. I 

Andrew: don't know if it'll fit with the brand. You guys, you guys tell me your plugs and pancake mix. Leave me some, uh, leave me some comments, send me some emails or some LinkedIn messages. If you want. Yep. Well, 

Tom: we'll hear from our listeners to anybody who's interested, uh, let us know your thoughts so we can pass those on to Andrew, but I'm, uh, Andrew I've left the most important question to last on purpose because I feel well, we both do.

It's really important to anchor. Um, W, you know, what we leave with in terms of, of thoughts. So we've, we've talked through so many great things. Uh, we've talked about, um, books, we've talked about pancakes, we've talked about ear plugs. Um, 

Andrew: most importantly, what's the most important meal of the day. Ooh, I'm going to have to go with breakfast.

Um, and that's not biased, but I'm definitely going to have to go with breakfast. You want something to fuel you through the day, if you want to get through good, uh, hour long episodes like this, if you want to be crushing your email inbox. Um, it's breakfast and it shouldn't be a protein shake, right? Like, uh, we have this saying, it's eat your food dude.

So, uh, if you are looking for something high protein, little shameless plug, you can get as much protein in a serving of pancakes as you can in the protein shake. So definitely breakfast. Um, and if you're serious about breakfast, it's flourish, pancakes.com. There it is. You did the shameless plug right there. Sorry. I had to, it was like, 

Kyle: I love it. We do it. Just say it again. That's the, that's the breakfast we all need. 

Andrew: It is for sure. Uh, but I wanted to say thank you guys for having me on the pod. So, you know, that I've reached out before about branding. Um, you guys are absolutely crushing it and I love kind of the personality that you put into your, into your website and your work.

Um, so I wish you guys all the best for anyone that wants to work with PB and J uh, I know you guys are incredible and you're just awesome people. So. Good luck with the business and the podcast. And I wish you guys all the best. I hope everything TEDx is this year for you. Thank you, Andrew. 

Tom: Appreciate that.

Um, same for you. And, uh, it is always good to talk with another founder. So thanks for sharing your 

Kyle: pancakes.com. Use code earplug and you get a free ear plug in your pancake. 

Tom: We all that we'll be, uh, we'll be looking at a brand collab soon with a PB and J flavored. Pancake. So, um, we'll 

Andrew: try that. Yep. Let's do it.

Tom: I like it. So, yeah, Andrew, truly. Thank you. This was so insightful and encouraging and just happy. Not because it's about food, but which has a very good, lovely place in our heart. But, um, just appreciate that today and, uh, yeah. Wish you all the best and we will be in touch. Well, that's it for this episode of commerce chefs. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed and learned a little more about the secret ingredients behind being a delicious D to C brand. But if you're looking for 

Kyle: more, make sure to join the calmer chefs community. By following us on social at commerce chefs, ask us questions, send in requests.We want to hear from you. It's 

Tom: just as important to feed your ears as your mouth, because as they say, the ears are the other mouth of the head. And 

Kyle: lastly, if you'd like this episode and want to support us, make sure to hit that subscribe button and leave us a five-star rating and review until next time, this has been a pinch of Kyle 

Tom: and a dash of Tom will be cooking with you in two weeks.